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Thread: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

  1. #21
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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    2) Police are humans just like the rest of us. They get twitchy and nervous, makes mistakes and overreact just like everyone else. It's really a high-stress job, and when you combine that stress with a volatile situation w/ demonstrators, and a lack of experience with regard to riot/crowd control tactics, **** just happens sometimes.
    While that is a good reason, it is not a good excuse.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    While that is a good reason, it is not a good excuse.
    agreed. I'm just sayin'
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    That's not the point. Nobody is saying military rules are actually applicable here. What we're suggesting is that maybe applying more force to our own civilians than we are willing to apply to civilians in other countries is ****ed up.
    The military standards for civil disturbance are the same at home as they are abroad.
    Law enforcement has no standards for overseas civil disturbances... they have no jurisdiction.
    ....so you are still stuck with critiquing local law enforcement actions/reactions by military standards that are not applicable.

    there are many similarities of the scalable reactions between military and law enforcement... but the major difference is at what point each reaches the culmination of force employed.
    law enforcement doesn't have the depth of force that the military does, so it's imperative to their mission that the force they utilize early is enough to quell the protest.

    IOW, the military is nicer to begin with.. and that's because there is no limit to what they are mission capable of
    the Police are a bit meaner to begin with.. because are limited as to what they are mission capable of.

    cops can bring in guns for direct fire missions if the sh*t hits the fan... the military can bring it all.. close air support, snipers, direct small arms fire, indirect fire ( artillery), area denial weapons ( big ass bombs) etc etc etc.

    all this lends to differing doctrines... the military can afford to allow a protest to ramp up in severity, as it has that contingency covered.
    law enforcement cannot allow a protest to ramp up in severity because they don't have the option to cover that contingency.
    ... and that's why they( law enforcement) employ force earlier than the military would.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    From your link:



    Not really germaine to your post's intent, but this is a real surprise. I can pretty much guarantee I'm not going to be treating enemy and friendly the same.

    As to your post, **** happens. Accidents happen. This anonymous source says one aims for range and not at people's heads. So. Range requires an arc. I don't for a New York Minute think this copper aimed at someone's head intentionally. If you think so, then you're into conspiracies. We have got to give "our own" the benefit of the doubt. Period.
    The wounded man was 10 feet away. The arc would have had to be twenty feet high.
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    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Military and police have very different mission statements. Police enforce the rule of law. Military kill enemy combatants.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Military and police have very different mission statements. Police enforce the rule of law. Military kill enemy combatants.
    All the more surprising that military SOP in this case seemed to be a lot less "trigger-happy" and more disciplined than what apparently happened in Oakland, I think that's the point the OP is trying to make.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    But thats ok because the OWS people are commies and deserve whats coming to them.
    I know what he's trying to describe - I've been through the SOTG non-lethal course as well. (incidentally, your bit about humanity? oleoresin capscicum (and you suggested foam!)..... trust me on this one. not humane. I'd rather you just beat me with a stick ). Those are not the rules for a warzone. Those aren't even the rules for a tax-free danger area such as Kuwait, for cripes sakes. In a warzone - always you have live rounds. Never are you allowed to not to have live rounds.

    but you do have shotguns, that is true, with beanbags, as I have mentioned before. which can also kill, should they strike you in the head.




    but hey, ya'll keep trying to whitewash the actions of the crowd by trying to smear the cops. it's a good media image, at least, so maybe it will work out for you.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-30-11 at 09:05 PM.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    All the more surprising that military SOP in this case seemed to be a lot less "trigger-happy" and more disciplined than what apparently happened in Oakland, I think that's the point the OP is trying to make.
    then it's a stupid point, because in a warzone we are a lot more "trigger happy", and anyone who has worked crowd control can look at this line and know that the cops did show discipline. a breakdown of discipline would have involved them trying to kill people on purpose.

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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    then it's a stupid point, because in a warzone we are a lot more "trigger happy", and anyone who has worked crowd control can look at this line and know that the cops did show discipline. a breakdown of discipline would have involved them trying to kill people on purpose.
    I'm no expert, but was the quote that was mentioned in the OP accurate?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  10. #30
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    Re: Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones



    But thats ok because the OWS people are commies and deserve whats coming to them.
    Ok well - he has a point.

    They're not allowed to do it in a warzone to the enemy or foreigners but are allowed to do it at home to our own people . . . what it seems is that our rules and regulations for home-base use are antiquated whereas the rules and regulations that have developed for warzone areas are specifically designed to be overly careful and sensitive as not to harm civilians.

    Well - that's reasonable. Regulation VS regulation. Is there anything in this officer's training or regulation code that dictates he used his firing tool inaccurately? Anything in their crowd-dispersal training that would have (should have) told him otherwise?

    If not - then obviously the problem with this issue lies in a lack of proper and adequate training or regulations.

    But I disagree with the accusation that he was aiming - I think he was just firing into the crowd and happened ot hit someone. If this was unacceptable there should be written rules against it which the officer then would have violated.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 10-30-11 at 09:14 PM.
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