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Thread: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

  1. #261
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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We tried this approach for the last 30 years, it hasn't worked.
    I contrasted two different approaches in the run up to this comment. Which are you suggested we "tried" that didn't work?

    Income taxes are how we pay our bills.
    Not when our bills exceed our revenue by $1.6 TRILLION in a single year. Income taxes are how we pay a few of our bills. Devaluation is how we pay some others. Debt that we don't ever intend to repay is how we pay for others still. You'd have seen this if you read my post.

    Boycotts have their place but cannot take the place of sound policies that served us so well during the most stable growth in history combined with the strongest middle class.
    You make the common mistake of assuming causality where there's barely even correlation. There were many factors that had to do with our growth over the last century and particularly in the 50s - 70s that do not boil down to "what were the tax rates?" Boycotts can do more than take the place of "sound policies." We just don't want to voluntarily bring about consequences to our lifestyles to effect the change we want to see. We'd like someone else to do that for us. You can't expect to American People to reward the same handful of huge corporations with all their purchases but expect some different result than them ending up with all the money and hence all the power.

    Progressive taxation and separating commercial banking from investment banking need to be our top priorities.
    The latter is agreeable. The former is based on misguided assumptions.

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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I contrasted two different approaches in the run up to this comment. Which are you suggested we "tried" that didn't work?
    I choose returning to progressive taxes.



    Not when our bills exceed our revenue by $1.6 TRILLION in a single year. Income taxes are how we pay a few of our bills. Devaluation is how we pay some others. Debt that we don't ever intend to repay is how we pay for others still. You'd have seen this if you read my post.
    It took 30 years of spending too much and taxing the rich too little to create our debt problem, it will take 30 years of the reverse to fix it.



    You make the common mistake of assuming causality where there's barely even correlation. There were many factors that had to do with our growth over the last century and particularly in the 50s - 70s that do not boil down to "what were the tax rates?"
    Yes, there was also deregulation of the banking industry. Tax cuts for the wealthy and deregulation - Reaganomics they called it.


    Boycotts can do more than take the place of "sound policies." We just don't want to voluntarily bring about consequences to our lifestyles to effect the change we want to see. We'd like someone else to do that for us. You can't expect to American People to reward the same handful of huge corporations with all their purchases but expect some different result than them ending up with all the money and hence all the power.



    The latter is agreeable. The former is based on misguided assumptions.
    In your opinion.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It took 30 years of spending too much and taxing the rich too little to create our debt problem, it will take 30 years of the reverse to fix it.
    Not in an era of oil decline concurrent with the rampant industrialization of the world's most populous countries. If there is a fix to it, it extends light years beyond tax rates. Tax rates won't give us back the global hegemony we had 30-60 years ago, and we don't have (and won't have) the per capita energy availability, or the need for human labor hours, to enjoy an era of progress like that... ever ever again.

    In your opinion.
    Yes, in my opinion, of course. We are discussing this issue based on our respective opinions.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 11-03-11 at 03:45 AM.

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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Not in an era of oil decline concurrent with the rampant industrialization of the world's most populous countries. If there is a fix to it, it extends light years beyond tax rates. Tax rates won't give us back the global hegemony we had 30-60 years ago, and we don't have (and won't have) the per capita energy availability, or the need for human labor hours, to enjoy an era of progress like that... ever ever again.
    I never claimed that restoring progressive taxes was the "fix" for all our problems. That is simply one thing that needs to be done. No other country has greater Global hegemony than the US. If we wish to maintain that, we must excel in education and innovation (especially in the area of alternative energy) and put our country back to work doing that. That includes eliminating tax incentives for companies to locate overseas, which the Democrats put up bill to do just that. And we need to again separate commercial banking from investment banking, which creates banks too big to fail that destroy people's life savings. And we need to upgrade our health care system as the rest of the industrialized world has done. And we need to cut our most wasteful spending on the military/industrial complex, our optional wars and return to defense only spending.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The sad truth is that it often difficult to tell other people how much tax they should pay because they can just leave. And why not? Other countries with lower taxes have great climates, high speed internet, the latest movies, night clubs, are scenic, relatively safe, etc.
    Really? I say, let them go.

    The G.O.P. says global competitiveness requires the United States to reduce its corporate tax rate. But the United States actually has the lowest corporate tax burden of any of the member nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

    Bruce Bartlett: Are Taxes in the U.S. High or Low? - NYTimes.com

    So it doesn't really matter what Americans were paying 20, 50 or 100 years ago, it's what people must pay now, and whether or not they are getting their money's worth. There are just more opportunities now in more countries and fewer reasons to invest in the United States. This is good because now countries must be more competitive to attract money and people, which allows greater freedoms then we have known in the not so distant past. Bur we must also adjust to this changing reality or Detroit will soon arrive in your neighborhood.
    Keep drinking the KoolAid.



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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post

    and you seem to have no problem with most of america paying much lower rates than the rich so your indignation is a joke
    The fact that half of America doesn't pay taxes doesn't even register with you that it is because they don't make enough money to even pay taxes. All that caught your eye was that they didn't pay taxes - just shows how brainwashed most conservatives are. They turn a blind eye to the rich soaking up all the money in the country off the backs of the middle class and all they can see is that the poor who don't make enough money aren't paying any taxes.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I choose returning to progressive taxes.





    It took 30 years of spending too much and taxing the rich too little to create our debt problem, it will take 30 years of the reverse to fix it.





    Yes, there was also deregulation of the banking industry. Tax cuts for the wealthy and deregulation - Reaganomics they called it.




    In your opinion.
    taxing the masses too little for what they want in government has caused too much government

    when the takers demand more and more and don't pay for it of course the crap's gonna hit the fan.

    I choose making those who want more to pay more.



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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    The fact that half of America doesn't pay taxes doesn't even register with you that it is because they don't make enough money to even pay taxes. All that caught your eye was that they didn't pay taxes - just shows how brainwashed most conservatives are. They turn a blind eye to the rich soaking up all the money in the country off the backs of the middle class and all they can see is that the poor who don't make enough money aren't paying any taxes.
    that's complete BS-just about everyone can pay something and if they cannot, they sure as hell shouldn't be demanding more and more from others



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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    The fact that half of America doesn't pay taxes doesn't even register with you that it is because they don't make enough money to even pay taxes. All that caught your eye was that they didn't pay taxes - just shows how brainwashed most conservatives are. They turn a blind eye to the rich soaking up all the money in the country off the backs of the middle class and all they can see is that the poor who don't make enough money aren't paying any taxes.
    This is the delusion they must create in order to get by. Otherwise, their conscience would take over.

    It's also why they ignore facts like CEO wages increasing 27% between 2009 and 2010, while employee pay rose 2.1% and the unemployment rate stayed marginally stagnant.

    The American system has been completely gamed - and instead of the CEO's and the boards rewarding them so foolishly - we blame the President. He's the reason unemployment isn't any better. He's the reason CEO's are raking in an average of $9.4 million each while the rest of the country struggles. It's not the CEOs at all - nor is the board of directors who appoint and approve such massive salaries and bonuses. All Obama's fault that this continues to happen even as most American's suffer. He specifically makes that happen and is responsible for that behavior occurring - as it has - for the past 35 years or so as the wealthiest Americans accumulated and consolidated nearly all of the economic growth the country has seen. All his fault.

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    Re: ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Not in an era of oil decline concurrent with the rampant industrialization of the world's most populous countries. If there is a fix to it, it extends light years beyond tax rates. Tax rates won't give us back the global hegemony we had 30-60 years ago, and we don't have (and won't have) the per capita energy availability, or the need for human labor hours, to enjoy an era of progress like that... ever ever again.



    Yes, in my opinion, of course. We are discussing this issue based on our respective opinions.
    Unfortunately, the ultimate fix is nature's way. It wont be kind and gentle.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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