• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

faint.gif I can't believe I'm going to agree with Cpwill , but this is not a basic human rights fight yet. However, if the current trend continues in income inequity and taxation, this will become about basic human rights in time.
 
megaprogman said:
Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement - CNN.com



My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq. There are more humane crowd control options available that the police have access to, which would also affirm the humanity of people that they may disagree with. The Oakland police have no excuse for their behavior.

Putting that aside, this sort of thing, putting a face on a movement is the type of thing that galvanizes people and movements and puts them on a higher plateau. These sorts of movements, whether OWS, arab spring, or Tea Party are always emotional at their core and emotional images get messages across faster and more fluidly than words and reason ever can. It is sad that it came to this, but due to police actions, here we are.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with the first point.
Although one fortunate enough not to have experienced war firsthand, I've been to a simulation (you know what I mean) and the protestors have it light. At least they don't have to do situps with their arms around their friends all night, until 4:00 am
 
cpwill said:
negative. the second group is the one that destroys civilization. they are our own, (weak and whiny, mind you) vikings. determined and willing to use force to ensure that they can live off of the work of others.
Click to expand...

Ok, now you are getting comical.
 
cpwill said:
negative. the second group is the one that destroys civilization. they are our own, (weak and whiny, mind you) vikings. determined and willing to use force to ensure that they can live off of the work of others.
Click to expand...

OK. Come to the Bar, talk it over. What did you drink today? :lol:
 
cpwill said:
I just spent two weeks helping people in the Philippines and now I'm working Thailand. You may have heard about it in the news lately. I admit my sympathy for the bitches sipping starbucks as they complain about how it's BS that they have to fill out paperwork for free money is somewhat lacking.

that being said, the point stands. to claim that these people have no choice but to break the law because that's the demand of a fundamental human right is laughable at best, and worrying that intelligent people would ever give it credence at worst.
Click to expand...

I am sure the british said the same sorts of things 200 or so years ago. :shrug:

cpwill said:
:doh you apparently missed the part about the heart stoppages. smoke grenades are about as non-lethal as you get. hell, we throw them at ourselves during tactical maneuvering.

however, if you would like to (say) fire all the teachers in America so that we can afford to equip each swat team with magic foam, i urge you to write your congressman. Until that day, I think I will not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Click to expand...

And its the rubber bullets that I am worried about, the smoke grenade thing is unfortunate and non lethal, I agree, however, it should only only been smoke grenades and nothing more lethal. This is about the willingness to use certain types force on the part of the police not the exact incident.

cpwill said:
the simple fact is that this was handled excellently by the police, who avoided causing physical harm as much as was humanly possible despite the fact that this sentiment was not shared by those who were attacking them.

here you are bitching about smoke grenades and rubber bullets - i notice you seem to have no words for those who would hurl stones, bottles, and firecrackers and police.
Click to expand...

The police have access to armor which is why I see this as symmetrical.

cpwill said:
have stood on the other end of a riot defensive line, and you have no idea what you are talking about. these guys showed professional discipline. LACK of discipline would have been refusing orders to use non-lethal means and moving to take on the protestors with the same level of aggression that they were being shown. If they had moved to mow down the crowd with live rounds, that would have been lack of discipline. if there had been a police riot in return where they had moved into the crowd swinging batons and hurting as many people as they could in revenge for being attacked themeslves, that would have been a lack of discipline. shooting a smoke grenade in response to people trying to physically hurt you requires intense discipline.
Click to expand...

And crimes of passion are still prosecuted, being in the moment is no excuse for doing the wrong thing.

cpwill said:
no. civilized people do not act like anarchist parasites. the people representing civilization in this story are the ones we have hired to defend us.
Click to expand...

And these OWS people are not parasites even if you wish to depict them as such.
 
megaprogman said:
He, of his own free will went to the protests and took part in them, so yes, he is a face of the movement, even if doesn't fit the stereotype that many here would like to portray. That alone makes it not an exploitation. Don't forget that there is more than one social group in this movement.

Personally, I wish it had never happened, the last thing we need is a martyr inflaming the passions of people, but I lay the blame for this on the police department as they could have dispersed the crowd less forcibly, even if it is within the rules of engagement, rules of engagement and wise judgement are two different things and they displayed a lack of the latter.
Click to expand...

Big difference between "a face" and "the" face.
 
nota bene said:
Big difference between "a face" and "the" face.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but since he was there of his own free will and supported OWS of his own free will, I fail to see how it is possible for this sort of thing to be an exploitation.
 
cpwill said:
[...] If someone had thrown a bottle, rock, and small explosives at me when I was in Iraq, they would have been killed. [...]
Click to expand...
And there is the face of the right wing movement. Comparing a sit-in with a war zone, primed to kill at the drop of a hat.
 
Last edited:
Most Republicans think that killing over 4,000 Americans lives is justifiable.

These are some of the most inhumane creatures I have seen in my life. In fact, they lie about it. It is disgusting. And what do liberals do? They continue this atrocious policy. ****ing disgusting.
 
Antiderivative said:
Most Republicans think that killing over 4,000 Americans lives is justifiable.

These are some of the most inhumane creatures I have seen in my life. In fact, they lie about it. It is disgusting. And what do liberals do? They continue this atrocious policy. ****ing disgusting.
Click to expand...

what are you talking about?
 
Karl said:
And there is the face of the right wing movement. Comparing a sit-in with a war zone, primed to kill at the drop of a hat.
Click to expand...

he didn't bring up a comparison, the OP did.

try to be fair, if that's possible.
 
Amazing how the OWS folks keep needing tear gas, rubber bullets and the like. Funny how that works out.
 
There are many faces of this movement. Here's one of them:

 
Here's another face of the movement:



This man and the above man have two completely different viewpoints. This isn't a cohesive group - it's a mish mash of several different ideas. There is no one face.
 
nota bene said:
The problem with trying to make this vet the "face" of the movement is that he's not. I think it's exploitive too.
Click to expand...

When cops are getting paid to silence average citizenry (and even war veterans) with blood on the pavement, then ya... someone, somewhere is exploiting something alright.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
When cops are getting paid to silence average citizenry (and even war veterans) with blood on the pavement, then ya... someone, somewhere is exploiting something alright.
Click to expand...

Did you miss the part where the group was attempting to storm the Capitol which is illegal? The police aren't trying to silence people - they're are trying to keep order. That's their job.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
When cops are getting paid to silence average citizenry (and even war veterans) with blood on the pavement, then ya... someone, somewhere is exploiting something alright.
Click to expand...

This is why the libertarian movement never gets off the ground.
 
(Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America) IAVA STATEMENT ON SCOTT OLSEN INCIDENT

“Iraq and Afghanistan veterans come from varied backgrounds and represent diverse opinions. The strength of the new veterans community lies in our shared commitment to country, and veterans, like all Americans, should actively participate in the ongoing conversation about America’s future. And their safety is of paramount concern," said IAVA Founder and Executive Director Paul Rieckhoff.

"The injury of any veteran is a serious concern to the broader veterans community—especially when it happens on American soil. Scott Olsen and his family are in our thoughts and prayers, and we hope for his speedy recovery. We expect to see a full and complete investigation into the circumstances of this incident. It’s what Scott, and all Americans, deserve.”

IAVA Statement on Scott Olsen Incident | Iraq Veterans Against the War
 
Karl said:
And there is the face of the right wing movement. Comparing a sit-in with a war zone, primed to kill at the drop of a hat.
Click to expand...

You need to take that up with Megaprogman - since HE is the one who made that comparison, claiming that the response in Iraq would have been less violent than the response of the cops.




woops, I'm sorry, did I just ruin your smear? :)
 
MrVicchio said:
Amazing how the OWS folks keep needing tear gas, rubber bullets and the like. Funny how that works out.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to think back to all the times those "Angry, Violent" tea party protests rioted and had to be driven back with tear gas and rubber bullets......
 
cpwill said:
I'm trying to think back to all the times those "Angry, Violent" tea party protests rioted and had to be driven back with tear gas and rubber bullets......
Click to expand...

LOL " I don't pay taxes "

 
I must have missed the part where he charged a police line, throwing rocks and explosives? and then the blogger was a friggin idiot at playing the race card. seriously, pbrauer is better than that.

actually, this guy was pretty much on point. it's not his money - its his grandkids money. and the blogger was indeed an idiot.
 
cpwill said:
I must have missed the part where he charged a police line, throwing rocks and explosives? and then the blogger was a friggin idiot at playing the race card. seriously, pbrauer is better than that.

actually, this guy was pretty much on point. it's not his money - its his grandkids money. and the blogger was indeed an idiot.
Click to expand...

Hilarious.....Tax Enough Already people not paying taxes:lamo

Wanna see the video where they beat up a disabled guy?
 
winston53660 said:
Hilarious.....Tax Enough Already people not paying taxes:lamo
Click to expand...

:shrug: and one day, when I'm retired, I shall live off my Roth and pay no taxes as well. this guy is a retired vet. i thought this whole thread was undergirded with the assumption about about how having a veteran in a movement somehow gave it legitimacy?

and isn't it interesting that you find the notion that someone should be concerned for the wellbeing of their grandchildren laughable...
 
cpwill said:
:shrug: and one day, when I'm retired, I shall live off my Roth and pay no taxes as well. this guy is a retired vet. i thought this whole thread was undergirded with the assumption about about how having a veteran in a movement somehow gave it legitimacy?

and isn't it interesting that you find the notion that someone should be concerned for the wellbeing of their grandchildren laughable...
Click to expand...

That would be your false assumption. The OWS movement has its own legitimacy with or without this guy, but a face will galvanize people like that neda person did in Iran.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom