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Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

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Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement - CNN.com

The chaotic scene unfolded with flash-bang grenades, rubber bullets and clouds of smoke. Canisters whizzed through the air amid deafening booms. Marine Lance Cpl. Scott Olsen went down.
"Medic! Medic!" someone yelled.
Olsen, 24, had seen his share of war in two tours of Iraq as a Marine. He was lucky, returning home physically unscathed.
But Tuesday evening, near the corner of 14th Avenue and Broadway in Oakland, California, Olsen went down.
The video images went viral: streams of crimson flowing down Olsen's head, his black T-shirt adorned with a white dove of peace, the war veteran carried to a hospital.
And with that, the Occupy movement had a face.

My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq. There are more humane crowd control options available that the police have access to, which would also affirm the humanity of people that they may disagree with. The Oakland police have no excuse for their behavior.

Putting that aside, this sort of thing, putting a face on a movement is the type of thing that galvanizes people and movements and puts them on a higher plateau. These sorts of movements, whether OWS, arab spring, or Tea Party are always emotional at their core and emotional images get messages across faster and more fluidly than words and reason ever can. It is sad that it came to this, but due to police actions, here we are.
 
My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq.

then I would suggest you go there, as your opinion is incorrect. If someone had thrown a bottle, rock, and small explosives at me when I was in Iraq, they would have been killed. If you run up to a patrol today with something unidentifiable in your hand and move to throw it at them, they will all turn en masse and ventilate you.

furthermore, some smoke grenades pop off - and the signature of that "explosion" is much smaller than you would get from a flashbang. I notice the distinct lack of people incapacitated. My bet would be you got the right angle of the top of a smoke grenade, or one of the idiot protestors dropped or poorly threw their firecracker.

There are more humane crowd control options available that the police have access to, which would also affirm the humanity of people that they may disagree with.

fascinating. considering they were using non-lethal force in response to what technically falls under the definition of a deadly threat triggering the 7 Justifications of Deadly Force, I would be interested in hearing what you think the nicer kinder gentler reaction (vice tear gas) to being charged by a crowd hurling explosives (because that is what firecrackers are) would be. Rubber bullets and tear gas hurt - but mallets to the skull hurt much worse.

The Oakland police have no excuse for their behavior.

that's funny. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the criminals who were attacking them.

Putting that aside, this sort of thing, putting a face on a movement is the type of thing that galvanizes people and movements and puts them on a higher plateau.

this guy doesn't put anything on a higher plateau any more than all the vets in the Tea Party put that movement on a higher plateau. If you want to get into a "who do the vets support" chest-thumper, the OWS crowd will lose that in a landslide.
 
this veteranb is becoming the face of the movement?
yeah, I can totally see the correlation with being popped in the noggin at a protest with something ,and the unjust shenanigans of wall street.
they'd be better served with continuing to utilize the "99%" sob stories as faces of the movement.

it's exploitation of this guys veterans status , nothing more , nothing less.
 
The problem with trying to make this vet the "face" of the movement is that he's not. I think it's exploitive too.
 
The problem with trying to make this vet the "face" of the movement is that he's not. I think it's exploitive too.

He, of his own free will went to the protests and took part in them, so yes, he is a face of the movement, even if doesn't fit the stereotype that many here would like to portray. That alone makes it not an exploitation. Don't forget that there is more than one social group in this movement.

Personally, I wish it had never happened, the last thing we need is a martyr inflaming the passions of people, but I lay the blame for this on the police department as they could have dispersed the crowd less forcibly, even if it is within the rules of engagement, rules of engagement and wise judgement are two different things and they displayed a lack of the latter.
 
He, of his own free will went to the protests and took part in them, so yes, he is a face of the movement, even if doesn't fit the stereotype that many here would like to portray. That alone makes it not an exploitation.

given that they are trying to take groups of varying degrees of social acceptability and hide them under the honor that Americans feel towards his service, yes, in fact, it is exploitive.

Personally, I wish it had never happened, the last thing we need is a martyr inflaming the passions of people, but I lay the blame for this on the police department as they could have dispersed the crowd less forcibly, even if it is within the rules of engagement, rules of engagement and wise judgement are two different things and they displayed a lack of the latter.

And I would love for you to list out the things that you honestly think would have dispersed that crowd that were less harmful than a friggin smoke grenade. I' mean come on.
 
given that they are trying to take groups of varying degrees of social acceptability and hide them under the honor that Americans feel towards his service, yes, in fact, it is exploitive.

I still disagree, because again, it was this person's wish to be there. This one consideration is really the only thing that matters.

And I would love for you to list out the things that you honestly think would have dispersed that crowd that were less harmful than a friggin smoke grenade. I' mean come on.

You forget the rubber bullets and other types of force.
 
then I would suggest you go there, as your opinion is incorrect. If someone had thrown a bottle, rock, and small explosives at me when I was in Iraq, they would have been killed. If you run up to a patrol today with something unidentifiable in your hand and move to throw it at them, they will all turn en masse and ventilate you.

furthermore, some smoke grenades pop off - and the signature of that "explosion" is much smaller than you would get from a flashbang. I notice the distinct lack of people incapacitated. My bet would be you got the right angle of the top of a smoke grenade, or one of the idiot protestors dropped or poorly threw their firecracker.

fascinating. considering they were using non-lethal force in response to what technically falls under the definition of a deadly threat triggering the 7 Justifications of Deadly Force, I would be interested in hearing what you think the nicer kinder gentler reaction (vice tear gas) to being charged by a crowd hurling explosives (because that is what firecrackers are) would be. Rubber bullets and tear gas hurt - but mallets to the skull hurt much worse.

that's funny. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the criminals who were attacking them.

this guy doesn't put anything on a higher plateau any more than all the vets in the Tea Party put that movement on a higher plateau. If you want to get into a "who do the vets support" chest-thumper, the OWS crowd will lose that in a landslide.

:applaud

Want to throw your lot in with OWS or Occupy Anyplace? That's your right and, some would say, your duty. But when you get painted with the same brush as the people behind you whoare throwing paint cans, fire crackers and rocks -- as you stand there with that dove on your t-shirt -- don't come cryin' to me.
 
I knew that sooner or later someone was going to injured or killed by the police or national guard and would become the 'four dead in Ohio' type martyr of the 99%/OWS movement. That he was a former Marine with two tours in Iraq under his belt gives this living-martyr some traction with a wider audience.

The killing of those four students in Ohio focused the attention of people who had previously not supported or opposed the anti-war movement and many decided they supported the movement. It was a turning point in the anti-war movement and got politicians on both sides to really work toward ending the Vietnam War because it became the hot-button issue on a large portion of the electorate's mind and they saw their re-election chance's depended on being seen as trying to end the war.

Martyrs (living or dead) galvanized groups into an 'us versus them' mentality. Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.

I know the national guard has not been used yet on the OWS/99% movement, but since they can be called up by governors, I don't believe it is too far-fetched to believe it could occur at some point in a state with a very conservative governor.
 
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I still disagree, because again, it was this person's wish to be there. This one consideration is really the only thing that matters.

considering that the gathering was illegal, no, in fact, it is not the only thing that matters.

You forget the rubber bullets and other types of force.

this thread is about the use (the evil, violent, hateful, war crime type use) of a smoke grenade; specifically that it accidentally hit a guy in the head. That's the law of averages for you.

:shrug: as for rubber bullets, good on them. you would prefer they switch to tracers? Beanbags? Birdshot?
 
considering that the gathering was illegal, no, in fact, it is not the only thing that matters.

I don't see the legality as that relevant. When considering fundamental human rights, the law is a lesser consideration.

this thread is about the use (the evil, violent, hateful, war crime type use) of a smoke grenade; specifically that it accidentally hit a guy in the head. That's the law of averages for you.

:shrug: as for rubber bullets, good on them. you would prefer they switch to tracers?

Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened, but that still does not excuse it.

My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.
 
I knew that sooner or later someone was going to injured or killed by the police or national guard and would become the 'four dead in Ohio' type martyr of the 99%/OWS movement. That he was a former Marine with two tours in Iraq under his belt gives this living-martyr some traction with a wider audience.

The killing of those four students in Ohio focused the attention of people who had previously not supported or opposed the anti-war movement and many decided they supported the movement. It was a turning point in the anti-war movement and got politicians on both sides to really work toward ending the Vietnam War because it became the hot-button issue on a large portion of the electorate's mind and they saw their re-election chance's depended on being seen as trying to end the war.

Martyrs (living or dead) galvanized groups into an 'us versus them' mentality. Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.

oh good night. when you use force on cops, they will use it right back on you, and it is your fault, not theirs.

if you WANT war with the police, then that's fine. that's what they are there to do - wage war on the lawless so that the citizenry is protected. but don't whine about how you are a friggin martyr because you got hurt after you chose to initiate conflict.
 
Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.

Completely disagree. In my opinion, most of the real working stiffs in this country respect the rule of law.
 
I don't see the legality as that relevant. When considering fundamental human rights, the law is a lesser consideration.

fundamental human rights such as..... the right to not have to file a petition for protest like everybody friggin else?

fundamental human rights.... :roll: yeah, when I look at these guys sitting there, I see real sufferers for fundamental human rights. yeah. these people out there whining about how it turns out they actually have to pay back their student loans are on the same plane as those in prison in Burma, China, and Cuba. People being tortured to death in North Korea, or gunned down in the street by armored vehicles in Syria are just like upper middle class white kids from America.

what utter complete bull****. you know what? we need a time of real starvation and suffering in America.

Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened, but that still does not excuse it.

:shrug: there is nothing to excuse.

My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.

"pain rays" cause more actual pain than the smoke grenade you are complaining about, can occasionally actually cause real damage (think, heart failure), and you may find this difficult to believe, but they and super foam are not part of your average swat teams' load.

The cops here did the right thing, a guy got hurt, that sucks. I realize that it may be difficult for the OWS crowd to "get" but sometimes "life is not fair". The rest of us call that "reality" and most of this useless generation has been protected from it their entire narcissistic existence.
 
Completely disagree. In my opinion, most of the real working stiffs in this country respect the rule of law.
Time will tell. I'm old and don't mind waiting to see if I'm right or you are.

I can say that yesterday while I was attending my senior water aerobics class, talk among the seniors turned to this incident and these normally anti-protesters seniors were discussing the Marine and Oakland protesters in a positive light and the Oakland police got compared to the national guard in Ohio. Even my aunt who has been spotted with tea bags on her hat on numerous occasions says that what happened was "wrong, wrong, wrong". I'm fairly sure I hear Bob Dylan in the background singing 'The times they are a-changing", but I could be wrong. We shall see in time.
 
fundamental human rights such as..... the right to not have to file a petition for protest like everybody friggin else?

fundamental human rights.... :roll: yeah, when I look at these guys sitting there, I see real sufferers for fundamental human rights. yeah. these people out there whining about how it turns out they actually have to pay back their student loans are on the same plane as those in prison in Burma, China, and Cuba. People being tortured to death in North Korea, or gunned down in the street by armored vehicles in Syria are just like upper middle class white kids from America.

what utter complete bull****. you know what? we need a time of real starvation and suffering in America.

Oh look, I posted something you did not want to hear and you get all emotional. Figures. Try debating with facts and intelligence.

"pain rays" cause more actual pain than the smoke grenade you are complaining about, can occasionally actually cause real damage (think, heart failure), and you may find this difficult to believe, but they and super foam are not part of your average swat teams' load.

The cops here did the right thing, a guy got hurt, that sucks. I realize that it may be difficult for the OWS crowd to "get" but sometimes "life is not fair". The rest of us call that "reality" and most of this useless generation has been protected from it their entire narcissistic existence.

Then the swat teams should get new equipment. The simple fact is that this was handled badly by the police, who by their actions were willing to cause real physical harm when they should have been better prepared and more disciplined given that their methods were going to get someone seriously hurt or killed at some point. The actual way it happened is not something that is all that informative when looking at the method being used. Children can play rough and hurt each other without meaning to, its a lack of care that cause the problem.

I am aware that even nonharmful methods do occasionally cause damage, but what we need to look at is probabilities of damage with the aim to cause the least possible, again, this is what civilized people do.
 
My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.

It suddenly occurs to me:

one of these sides works hard to take care of their families. they work a job that entails alot of effort, and alot of difficult, awkward, painful, and dangerous work on behalf of a populace whose main interaction with them is to bitch about getting speeding tickets. they are disproportionately military veterans, because they are the kind of people who believe in protecting others. they obey the law, pay taxes, raise families and work hard for what they get.

the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people, who nonetheless are trying to protect them from the predators that are in the second groups' midst.


who, exactly, represents civilization again?
 
It suddenly occurs to me:

one of these sides works hard to take care of their families. they work a job that entails alot of effort, and alot of difficult, awkward, painful, and dangerous work on behalf of a populace whose main interaction with them is to bitch about getting speeding tickets. they are disproportionately military veterans, because they are the kind of people who believe in protecting others. they obey the law, pay taxes, raise families and work hard for what they get.

the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people, who nonetheless are trying to protect them from the predators that are in the second groups' midst.


who, exactly, represents civilization again?

Both groups, but different aspect of it, why?

Even so, one can be uncivilized 1% of the time and still be accurately accused of being uncivilized in that specific activity. If you will notice I never expanded my complaint beyond a specific activity.
 
Oh look, I posted something you did not want to hear and you get all emotional. Figures. Try debating with facts and intelligence.

I just spent two weeks helping people in the Philippines and now I'm working Thailand. You may have heard about it in the news lately. I admit my sympathy for the bitches sipping starbucks as they complain about how it's BS that they have to fill out paperwork for free money is somewhat lacking.

that being said, the point stands. to claim that these people have no choice but to break the law because that's the demand of a fundamental human right is laughable at best, and worrying that intelligent people would ever give it credence at worst.

Then the swat teams should get new equipment.

:doh you apparently missed the part about the heart stoppages. smoke grenades are about as non-lethal as you get. hell, we throw them at ourselves during tactical maneuvering.

however, if you would like to (say) fire all the teachers in America so that we can afford to equip each swat team with magic foam, i urge you to write your congressman. Until that day, I think I will not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

The simple fact is that this was handled badly by the police, who by their actions were willing to cause real physical harm

the simple fact is that this was handled excellently by the police, who avoided causing physical harm as much as was humanly possible despite the fact that this sentiment was not shared by those who were attacking them.

here you are bitching about smoke grenades and rubber bullets - i notice you seem to have no words for those who would hurl stones, bottles, and firecrackers and police.

when they should have been better prepared and more disciplined given that their methods were going to get someone seriously hurt or killed at some point.

I have stood on the other end of a riot defensive line, and you have no idea what you are talking about. these guys showed professional discipline. LACK of discipline would have been refusing orders to use non-lethal means and moving to take on the protestors with the same level of aggression that they were being shown. If they had moved to mow down the crowd with live rounds, that would have been lack of discipline. if there had been a police riot in return where they had moved into the crowd swinging batons and hurting as many people as they could in revenge for being attacked themeslves, that would have been a lack of discipline. shooting a smoke grenade in response to people trying to physically hurt you requires intense discipline.

, this is what civilized people do.

no. civilized people do not act like anarchist parasites. the people representing civilization in this story are the ones we have hired to defend us.
 
Both groups, but different aspect of it, why?

negative. the second group is the one that destroys civilization. they are our own, (weak and whiny, mind you) vikings. determined and willing to use force to ensure that they can live off of the work of others.
 
cpwill the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people said:
I would like to see your link to prove that statement. You talk about BS! BS is where you find it. I've just showed you yours.
 
check it out dave, this guy is out there fighting for human freedom:

 
hey lookit that, there are jobs available for all of these young, healthy people demanding a bailout...

...Potato farmer Keith Smith saw most of his Hispanic workers leave after Alabama's tough immigration law took effect, so he hired Americans. It hasn't worked out: They show up late, work slower than seasoned farm hands and are ready to call it a day after lunch or by midafternoon. Some quit after a single day...

In south Georgia, Connie Horner has heard just about every reason unemployed Americans don't want to work on her blueberry farm. It's hot, the hours are long, the pay isn't enough and it's just plain hard.

"You can't find legal workers," Horner said. "Basically they last a day or two, literally."...
 
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