Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 141

Thread: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

  1. #11
    200M yrs of experience
    Frolicking Dinosaurs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southeastern USA
    Last Seen
    05-07-12 @ 12:19 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,166

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    I knew that sooner or later someone was going to injured or killed by the police or national guard and would become the 'four dead in Ohio' type martyr of the 99%/OWS movement. That he was a former Marine with two tours in Iraq under his belt gives this living-martyr some traction with a wider audience.

    The killing of those four students in Ohio focused the attention of people who had previously not supported or opposed the anti-war movement and many decided they supported the movement. It was a turning point in the anti-war movement and got politicians on both sides to really work toward ending the Vietnam War because it became the hot-button issue on a large portion of the electorate's mind and they saw their re-election chance's depended on being seen as trying to end the war.

    Martyrs (living or dead) galvanized groups into an 'us versus them' mentality. Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.

    I know the national guard has not been used yet on the OWS/99% movement, but since they can be called up by governors, I don't believe it is too far-fetched to believe it could occur at some point in a state with a very conservative governor.
    Last edited by Frolicking Dinosaurs; 10-29-11 at 11:05 AM. Reason: added material
    I don't want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was wedding between the religious fundamentalists and political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it. ~ Billy Graham in Parade magazine February 1, 1981.

  2. #12
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,148

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I still disagree, because again, it was this person's wish to be there. This one consideration is really the only thing that matters.
    considering that the gathering was illegal, no, in fact, it is not the only thing that matters.

    You forget the rubber bullets and other types of force.
    this thread is about the use (the evil, violent, hateful, war crime type use) of a smoke grenade; specifically that it accidentally hit a guy in the head. That's the law of averages for you.

    as for rubber bullets, good on them. you would prefer they switch to tracers? Beanbags? Birdshot?

  3. #13
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    considering that the gathering was illegal, no, in fact, it is not the only thing that matters.
    I don't see the legality as that relevant. When considering fundamental human rights, the law is a lesser consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    this thread is about the use (the evil, violent, hateful, war crime type use) of a smoke grenade; specifically that it accidentally hit a guy in the head. That's the law of averages for you.

    as for rubber bullets, good on them. you would prefer they switch to tracers?
    Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened, but that still does not excuse it.

    My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.

  4. #14
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,148

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    I knew that sooner or later someone was going to injured or killed by the police or national guard and would become the 'four dead in Ohio' type martyr of the 99%/OWS movement. That he was a former Marine with two tours in Iraq under his belt gives this living-martyr some traction with a wider audience.

    The killing of those four students in Ohio focused the attention of people who had previously not supported or opposed the anti-war movement and many decided they supported the movement. It was a turning point in the anti-war movement and got politicians on both sides to really work toward ending the Vietnam War because it became the hot-button issue on a large portion of the electorate's mind and they saw their re-election chance's depended on being seen as trying to end the war.

    Martyrs (living or dead) galvanized groups into an 'us versus them' mentality. Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.
    oh good night. when you use force on cops, they will use it right back on you, and it is your fault, not theirs.

    if you WANT war with the police, then that's fine. that's what they are there to do - wage war on the lawless so that the citizenry is protected. but don't whine about how you are a friggin martyr because you got hurt after you chose to initiate conflict.

  5. #15
    Sage


    MaggieD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Chicago Area
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    43,243
    Blog Entries
    43

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.
    Completely disagree. In my opinion, most of the real working stiffs in this country respect the rule of law.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  6. #16
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,148

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't see the legality as that relevant. When considering fundamental human rights, the law is a lesser consideration.
    fundamental human rights such as..... the right to not have to file a petition for protest like everybody friggin else?

    fundamental human rights.... yeah, when I look at these guys sitting there, I see real sufferers for fundamental human rights. yeah. these people out there whining about how it turns out they actually have to pay back their student loans are on the same plane as those in prison in Burma, China, and Cuba. People being tortured to death in North Korea, or gunned down in the street by armored vehicles in Syria are just like upper middle class white kids from America.

    what utter complete bull****. you know what? we need a time of real starvation and suffering in America.

    Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened, but that still does not excuse it.
    there is nothing to excuse.

    My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.
    "pain rays" cause more actual pain than the smoke grenade you are complaining about, can occasionally actually cause real damage (think, heart failure), and you may find this difficult to believe, but they and super foam are not part of your average swat teams' load.

    The cops here did the right thing, a guy got hurt, that sucks. I realize that it may be difficult for the OWS crowd to "get" but sometimes "life is not fair". The rest of us call that "reality" and most of this useless generation has been protected from it their entire narcissistic existence.

  7. #17
    200M yrs of experience
    Frolicking Dinosaurs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southeastern USA
    Last Seen
    05-07-12 @ 12:19 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,166

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Completely disagree. In my opinion, most of the real working stiffs in this country respect the rule of law.
    Time will tell. I'm old and don't mind waiting to see if I'm right or you are.

    I can say that yesterday while I was attending my senior water aerobics class, talk among the seniors turned to this incident and these normally anti-protesters seniors were discussing the Marine and Oakland protesters in a positive light and the Oakland police got compared to the national guard in Ohio. Even my aunt who has been spotted with tea bags on her hat on numerous occasions says that what happened was "wrong, wrong, wrong". I'm fairly sure I hear Bob Dylan in the background singing 'The times they are a-changing", but I could be wrong. We shall see in time.

  8. #18
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    fundamental human rights such as..... the right to not have to file a petition for protest like everybody friggin else?

    fundamental human rights.... yeah, when I look at these guys sitting there, I see real sufferers for fundamental human rights. yeah. these people out there whining about how it turns out they actually have to pay back their student loans are on the same plane as those in prison in Burma, China, and Cuba. People being tortured to death in North Korea, or gunned down in the street by armored vehicles in Syria are just like upper middle class white kids from America.

    what utter complete bull****. you know what? we need a time of real starvation and suffering in America.
    Oh look, I posted something you did not want to hear and you get all emotional. Figures. Try debating with facts and intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    "pain rays" cause more actual pain than the smoke grenade you are complaining about, can occasionally actually cause real damage (think, heart failure), and you may find this difficult to believe, but they and super foam are not part of your average swat teams' load.

    The cops here did the right thing, a guy got hurt, that sucks. I realize that it may be difficult for the OWS crowd to "get" but sometimes "life is not fair". The rest of us call that "reality" and most of this useless generation has been protected from it their entire narcissistic existence.
    Then the swat teams should get new equipment. The simple fact is that this was handled badly by the police, who by their actions were willing to cause real physical harm when they should have been better prepared and more disciplined given that their methods were going to get someone seriously hurt or killed at some point. The actual way it happened is not something that is all that informative when looking at the method being used. Children can play rough and hurt each other without meaning to, its a lack of care that cause the problem.

    I am aware that even nonharmful methods do occasionally cause damage, but what we need to look at is probabilities of damage with the aim to cause the least possible, again, this is what civilized people do.

  9. #19
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,148

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.
    It suddenly occurs to me:

    one of these sides works hard to take care of their families. they work a job that entails alot of effort, and alot of difficult, awkward, painful, and dangerous work on behalf of a populace whose main interaction with them is to bitch about getting speeding tickets. they are disproportionately military veterans, because they are the kind of people who believe in protecting others. they obey the law, pay taxes, raise families and work hard for what they get.

    the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people, who nonetheless are trying to protect them from the predators that are in the second groups' midst.


    who, exactly, represents civilization again?

  10. #20
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It suddenly occurs to me:

    one of these sides works hard to take care of their families. they work a job that entails alot of effort, and alot of difficult, awkward, painful, and dangerous work on behalf of a populace whose main interaction with them is to bitch about getting speeding tickets. they are disproportionately military veterans, because they are the kind of people who believe in protecting others. they obey the law, pay taxes, raise families and work hard for what they get.

    the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people, who nonetheless are trying to protect them from the predators that are in the second groups' midst.


    who, exactly, represents civilization again?
    Both groups, but different aspect of it, why?

    Even so, one can be uncivilized 1% of the time and still be accurately accused of being uncivilized in that specific activity. If you will notice I never expanded my complaint beyond a specific activity.

Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •