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Thread: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommittee’

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Most of you have no real understanding of the economy. And that includes basically everyone here saying that cuts are the answer.

    If we went with cuts, contrary to your asinine baseless beliefs, we WILL see another recession. The US is growing at barely 1%. You start reducing aggregate demand and the associated spending multipliers that stem from it and we are likely to see another recession. Growth is a partial reason why tax revenues are keeping the deficit from getting bigger. You inflict an artificial recession and the deficit will expand especially as automatic stabilizers kick in as unemployment rises. Revenues will fall and outflows will increase resulting in a bigger debt problem. You say you want to fix the economy, but your solution makes it far worse. Monetary policy right now is at one of the all time lows, removing that as a primer to the pump. And before Cpwill posts that twice refuted bull**** study again about how cuts actually fix the economy, his article ignores all impacts other than fiscal policy which effectively argues that economic data exists in isolated boxes which is patently retarded.

    As much as you complain about high taxes, the US actually has one of the lower effective marginal rates in the Industrial World. Furthermore, Corporate tax rates, effective are lower than many places in Europe. If you don't know what effective verse statutory rates are, don't reply because I'm going to be a total asshole to you if you screw it up.

    Considering how the rest of the world is still lending to the US at abnormally low rates DESPITE a ratings cut, the debt isn't an immediate issue. The lackluster growth is. No one ever grew their business by destroying it. That said, any spending MUST be targeted in growth areas.

    You people are demanding a recession as the cure to a deficit problem. That is completely idiotic.
    You are an articulate Keynesian... but I would contend that interest rates do not reflect any sort of faith in the US ability to repay, only that 1. Treasuries are safer than EU debt, and 2. the treasury market is the only one deep enough to absorb safe-haven cash from China, thus driving yields down because of the size of the assets for sale, not their underlying value. While I'm not with the slash-and-burn cutters, I would agree with their assessment that the US debt trajectory is deadly serious and artificially low rates have lulled fiscal and monetary policy makers into a false sense of security.

    Perhaps we should not slash 3T from the budget, but spending increases should be solely by PAYGO rules.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    No plan coming out of Washington is going to do any good because it's a spending problem, not a cash flow problem. First, all programs need to be either cut AND forced to become efficient or eliminated, this means an end to baseline budgeting in lieu of actual budgeting that every household and business must comply with and follow. There is a mentality that awards waste by cutting budgets only if one comes in under budget, this is why many departments purposefully overspend. By all programs I mean ALL, not some, ALL.

    There were reports of a certain female senator a little while back granting spending to a military contractor for new M16 type carbines, these replace the perfectly functional models before with what many of my veteran buddies have called "worthless, no stopping power, jamming pieces of ****", also the military was working on certain "make work" projects that would ultimately be canceled such as the "stealth boat" while canceling usable items such as the B2 stealth, F-17 stealth fighter, and the F22 Raptor. This is just military mistakes. What about social program fraud? Well that is rampant, I am not against lean social programs at this time if they are fully accountable and solvent because I realize that economically we cannot absorb a grand scale immediate elimination monetarily, but weening ourselves off of those programs at a decent pace and ensuring they become an investment rather than a handout is the only way to get those under control. Next, we have an ill-concieved, ill advised healthcare bill that has done exactly the damage predicted at the pace warned of which is costing TRILLIONS of dollars and will constantly increase in cost because the policies that private companies know are necessary to keep costs in line are not IN THE BILL.

    Just off the top of my head these things can be done immediately without raising taxes, and that is without serious cutbacks to agencies not found in the constitutional federal powers that in my opinion are better left to the states and unnecessary expenditures. If we actually figured out how to convince our policy makers that they would be in a strong position by cutting the fat now and doing things the constitutional way we wouldn't need a dime more from anyone, and in fact could relax the tax system greatly.
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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Most of you have no real understanding of the economy. And that includes basically everyone here saying that cuts are the answer.

    If we went with cuts, contrary to your asinine baseless beliefs, we WILL see another recession. The US is growing at barely 1%. You start reducing aggregate demand and the associated spending multipliers that stem from it and we are likely to see another recession. Growth is a partial reason why tax revenues are keeping the deficit from getting bigger. You inflict an artificial recession and the deficit will expand especially as automatic stabilizers kick in as unemployment rises. Revenues will fall and outflows will increase resulting in a bigger debt problem. You say you want to fix the economy, but your solution makes it far worse. Monetary policy right now is at one of the all time lows, removing that as a primer to the pump. And before Cpwill posts that twice refuted bull**** study again about how cuts actually fix the economy, his article ignores all impacts other than fiscal policy which effectively argues that economic data exists in isolated boxes which is patently retarded.
    i've noticed that the weaker ground you are on, the more insulting you become. as far as compensations go, can't you just go buy a mercedes and drive it past the guys who used to make fun of you in high school or something?

    my favorite part is how you try to discredit actual history - apparently every time something else happens to boost the economy when the government is reduced as a portion of it and every time something else happens to harm the economy when the government is increased.

    not keynesians fault, you see, just a damn bloody coincidence

    As much as you complain about high taxes, the US actually has one of the lower effective marginal rates in the Industrial World. Furthermore, Corporate tax rates, effective are lower than many places in Europe. If you don't know what effective verse statutory rates are, don't reply because I'm going to be a total asshole to you if you screw it up.
    you know as well as I do (better, in fact) that that completely depends on what business you are in - leaving the government still punishing (for example) retailers and smaller businesses, and you also know about the high compliance costs and efficiency losses you see from tax exposure minimization.

    Considering how the rest of the world is still lending to the US at abnormally low rates DESPITE a ratings cut, the debt isn't an immediate issue. The lackluster growth is. No one ever grew their business by destroying it. That said, any spending MUST be targeted in growth areas.

    You people are demanding a recession as the cure to a deficit problem. That is completely idiotic.
    nah. history shows us the path we must take. we cut spending, and then even though that is supposed to be disastrous "some other undefined but still apparently massively powerful impact" will come in and save us.

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Most of you have no real understanding of the economy. And that includes basically everyone here saying that cuts are the answer.

    If we went with cuts, contrary to your asinine baseless beliefs, we WILL see another recession. The US is growing at barely 1%. You start reducing aggregate demand and the associated spending multipliers that stem from it and we are likely to see another recession. Growth is a partial reason why tax revenues are keeping the deficit from getting bigger. You inflict an artificial recession and the deficit will expand especially as automatic stabilizers kick in as unemployment rises. Revenues will fall and outflows will increase resulting in a bigger debt problem. You say you want to fix the economy, but your solution makes it far worse. Monetary policy right now is at one of the all time lows, removing that as a primer to the pump. And before Cpwill posts that twice refuted bull**** study again about how cuts actually fix the economy, his article ignores all impacts other than fiscal policy which effectively argues that economic data exists in isolated boxes which is patently retarded.

    As much as you complain about high taxes, the US actually has one of the lower effective marginal rates in the Industrial World. Furthermore, Corporate tax rates, effective are lower than many places in Europe. If you don't know what effective verse statutory rates are, don't reply because I'm going to be a total asshole to you if you screw it up.

    Considering how the rest of the world is still lending to the US at abnormally low rates DESPITE a ratings cut, the debt isn't an immediate issue. The lackluster growth is. No one ever grew their business by destroying it. That said, any spending MUST be targeted in growth areas.

    You people are demanding a recession as the cure to a deficit problem. That is completely idiotic.
    You completely ignore the human side of the equation. People are not spending their money. That is what we need to happen. Well sort of maybe. Government spending at it's best is just a wash. Take from one and give it to another. I realize this is popular for many but it's not the answer.

    You call those who disagree with you asinine but then you promote an idea that will only create even less spending. corporate taxes are simply passed on the consumers in higher prices OR lost jobs.

    You don't try to address a problem only after it's become completely out of control like with Greece. Perhaps the sustainable level is somewhere below the economy we created with the bubbles of the last 20 years. No amount of government spending will be able to overcome that.

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    In a budget wher 40% of spending is with borrowed money, increased taxes do not mean increased spending. If you're refering to the "baseline" projections as a growth in spending, that is a fair point, as it should be indexed to inflation, but otherwise remain constant. Are you with the GOP candikdates who have stated that they would refuse a 10:1 cut:tax ratio in a hypothetical plan?
    No. I wouldn't even balk at a lower number than that. I do not think tax increases will work BUT I would compromise to get cuts. Obama's plan increases taxes and then spends it. That would be a big NO. I would not comprimise with the promise of future cuts for spending today.
    Last edited by 1Perry; 10-30-11 at 11:16 AM.

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i've noticed that the weaker ground you are on, the more insulting you become. as far as compensations go, can't you just go buy a mercedes and drive it past the guys who used to make fun of you in high school or something?

    my favorite part is how you try to discredit actual history - apparently every time something else happens to boost the economy when the government is reduced as a portion of it and every time something else happens to harm the economy when the government is increased.

    not keynesians fault, you see, just a damn bloody coincidence
    Actually the arguement is that not enough of what caused the problems was used. SPend $800 billion and unemployment goes up the problem for those who believe spending is the answer will say it was because we didn't spend enough or that we spent it on the wrong things.
    Last edited by 1Perry; 10-30-11 at 11:20 AM.

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Actually the arguement is that not enough of what caused the problems was used. SPend $800 billion and unemployment goes up the problem for those who believe spending is the answer will say it was because we didn't spend enough or that we spent it on the wrong things.
    but thats' the trick, isn't it? we spend more because they tell us, it turns out to produce the exact opposite of the result they predicted, and then we are always told that no matter what we spent we should have spent more...

    it's a neat little non-falsifiable argument. evidence and the scientific method need not apply.

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    So the bill cut a little bit, raised taxes targetting just one group of people, and increased spending .

    Good on the Republicans for giving it a no go.

    Want to submit a plan to cut the budget...how about a plan that just CUTS THE BUDGET. Not cuts a little bit as political cover, and then just increases spending and increases taxes

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So the bill cut a little bit, raised taxes targetting just one group of people, and increased spending .

    Good on the Republicans for giving it a no go.

    Want to submit a plan to cut the budget...how about a plan that just CUTS THE BUDGET. Not cuts a little bit as political cover, and then just increases spending and increases taxes
    But Zyphlin, we all know that it's asinine of we the people to expect a bill coming from D.C. to do what it says. We just don't get the nuances and other schemes because they say so. I mean, why should we expect a bill to say cuts and mean cuts, not allot less than originally planned but actual cuts. Sarcasm off.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Boehner rejects Democrats’ $3 trillion deficit reduction proposal to ‘supercommit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    but thats' the trick, isn't it? we spend more because they tell us, it turns out to produce the exact opposite of the result they predicted, and then we are always told that no matter what we spent we should have spent more...

    it's a neat little non-falsifiable argument. evidence and the scientific method need not apply.
    Makes for a convienent excuse I suppose.

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