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Thread: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

  1. #141
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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Seems like Buffalo Springfield had a different take;

    Buffalo Springfield - Stop Children What's That Sound - YouTube
    Not at all. The song was about the anti war and civil rights protests that were demanding the government take specific actions. As a group, the Occupy people have no other purpose than to illegally occupy public or private property, drain city treasuries and in some cases interfere with important functions of the community for no other reason than to say, as you suggest, "Look at me! Look at me! I'm pretending to be a protester just like the anti war and civil rights protesters of the 1960's."

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, I dispute the intelligence of the argument I had quoted.
    Please elaborate.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    If you are protesting the banks because YOU took out student loans (including that little cash stipend and spent that on video games and alcohol) and gave the money you took out to pay the UNIVERSITIES...what kind of an idiot does that make the protester? If you protest Wall Street because of the influence they have on politicians and then ELECT the very politicians they are paying off, what kind of an idiot does that make the protester? If you are protesting the banks and wall street because governments, industry, and labor have driven the job markets overseas, what kind of an idiot does that make the protester? If you protest a bank because you are too stupid to read the contract you signed or because you foolishly convinced yourself that rolling all of your debt including car and credit card payments so that you could spend 30 years paying them off instead of 3-4 and now cant afford to make said home payment because you went ahead and took out a 120% loan AND a second to make it all work...again...what kind of an idiot does that make the protester?

    Total idiots.

    Oh yes...dood...you are REALLY showing the governments you are upset. Showing them so much you will keep electing the same crop of clowns to keep doing the same thing.
    Actually, it makes them useful idiots...useful to the international, anti-capitalist organizations that started this whole shebang.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is nothing but political bias and ignorance. If you pay attention you clearly see that the overall problem is the current corporate capitalist model we now find ourselves under facilitated through the gross mixture of State and corporate interest.
    You are using words you don't understand and drawing erroneous conclusions. The alternative to large publicly held corporations are large privately held companies, sole proprietorships or partnerships, and all the complaints about large corporations could be made about large privately held companies. The basic argument against "corporate capitalism" is that the owners of corporations are not held as accountable for the actions of the corporations as the owners of a privately held company. That is technically accurate but misleading. While the owners of a publicly held corporation, the stockholders, are not held accountable for the actions of the corporation, the executives and directors are. In fact, large publicly held corporations are more democratic in nature, and benefit society more than privately held companies because much of their stock is held by pension funds and mutual funds that distribute dividends and capital gains to the greater public, whereas the profits of privately held companies are shared among only one or a few people.

    So the people at OWS who are ranting about corporate greed are simply angry and confused and have no idea what they are talking about - would privately held companies pursue profits any less aggressively? As for free market capitalism, it is a theoretical construct that supposes all producers are of about the same size and competition is based only on price, and it has little to no application in the real world. If it did, Bayer would no longer be able to sell its aspirins.

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Parts of them call for exactly that. All of them call for the end of corporate capitalism, which is the main focus of the OWS movement.
    And put what in its place?

    j-mac
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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And put what in its place?

    j-mac
    That will depend on who you talk to. As I said, this isn't a coherent movement aimed at any particular solution. But rather a magnitude demonstration to demonstrate the scale of problem.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by toomuchtime_ View Post
    You are using words you don't understand and drawing erroneous conclusions. The alternative to large publicly held corporations are large privately held companies, sole proprietorships or partnerships, and all the complaints about large corporations could be made about large privately held companies. The basic argument against "corporate capitalism" is that the owners of corporations are not held as accountable for the actions of the corporations as the owners of a privately held company. That is technically accurate but misleading. While the owners of a publicly held corporation, the stockholders, are not held accountable for the actions of the corporation, the executives and directors are. In fact, large publicly held corporations are more democratic in nature, and benefit society more than privately held companies because much of their stock is held by pension funds and mutual funds that distribute dividends and capital gains to the greater public, whereas the profits of privately held companies are shared among only one or a few people.

    So the people at OWS who are ranting about corporate greed are simply angry and confused and have no idea what they are talking about - would privately held companies pursue profits any less aggressively? As for free market capitalism, it is a theoretical construct that supposes all producers are of about the same size and competition is based only on price, and it has little to no application in the real world. If it did, Bayer would no longer be able to sell its aspirins.
    Your assumptions are made in order for you to pursue your particular brand of propaganda (particularly your large brush painting of the whole of the OWS movement). With corporate capitalism what you see is a mixing of State and Corporate entities in a way that the Corporations through their power and money endorse the status quo of the government while in return receiving beneficial packages such as tax write offs, subsidies, etc. which unnaturally select from the market the corporations which are entangled with State. As such, the two feed off of each other, competition is destroyed, and economic mobility begins to dry up. Which is the place we are at now. This isn't free market capitalism, this is corporate capitalism. The ideal should be to return to free market through the removal of government and corporate entanglement.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That will depend on who you talk to. As I said, this isn't a coherent movement aimed at any particular solution. But rather a magnitude demonstration to demonstrate the scale of problem.
    What it demonstrates is the scale of their emotional upset and confusion, not the scale of the problem. To demonstrate the scale of the problem, they would have to have some idea of what the problem is, and clearly they don't.

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by toomuchtime_ View Post
    What it demonstrates is the scale of their emotional upset and confusion, not the scale of the problem. To demonstrate the scale of the problem, they would have to have some idea of what the problem is, and clearly they don't.
    But they have a common rallying call which is firmly set against the entanglement of State and Corporate entities.

    I fear that in some people's zeal to politicize this into a nice category for dismissal, they don't actually look at what's being called for. Rather they want to belittle the protest and try to portray it as impotent and lacking common cause. However, anyone who is actually going to look at the data clearly comes across the common theme of OWS; that being the gross entanglement of State and Corporation has led to a stiffing of economic mobility and unfair practices in which corporations most entangled with the State are given preferential treatment.

    OWS & TP.jpg
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Your assumptions are made in order for you to pursue your particular brand of propaganda (particularly your large brush painting of the whole of the OWS movement). With corporate capitalism what you see is a mixing of State and Corporate entities in a way that the Corporations through their power and money endorse the status quo of the government while in return receiving beneficial packages such as tax write offs, subsidies, etc. which unnaturally select from the market the corporations which are entangled with State. As such, the two feed off of each other, competition is destroyed, and economic mobility begins to dry up. Which is the place we are at now. This isn't free market capitalism, this is corporate capitalism. The ideal should be to return to free market through the removal of government and corporate entanglement.
    What you are arguing against is not corporations but the size of companies. Everything you complain about would be equally true if the large publicly held corporations were privately held, so corporate capitalism is no more than a catchy slogan. Your claim that government "destroys" competition through favoritism is nonsense, at least before the Obama administration. In fact, the government often acts to preserve competition by breaking up monopolies or through other actions as in forcing Microsoft to allow competition from other browsers. The government, especially the present one, does sometimes slow capital investment and economic growth with taxes and regulations, but this has nothing to do with whether large companies are privately owned or publicly held.

    Free market capitalism may seem like an attractive ideal, but it can never be a sustainable reality. As companies, regardless of whether they are privately owned or publicly held corporations, compete for market share, often one or a combination of a few will become a monopoly or trust and competition will effectively disappear unless the government steps in to break them up. Over regulation can inhibit capital investment with the result of slow economic growth and high unemployment, but too little government regulation can allow the formation of monopolies that will lead to lower efficiency and a higher cost of living.

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