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2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

j-mac said:
Ok, Now since this is the fall back position of yours that you seem to have been using for years now when you can't have a rational discussion on the facts. I want you to document for me, when was the last time that I used any of the three sources you mention as anything other than opinion, and when I last used them period!

If you are not going to have an honest discussion on the topic, then don't respond. Thanks.
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J, the fact is you have. I'm not going to go looking as you cherry picked on this.

I am not missing the point at all, please show me the methodology, and how your study starts out with a purely objective hypothesis and we can go from there. But so far all you are offering is a giant 'Nuh uh' as rebuttal, completely refusing to even consider other studies on the subject that disagree with your study's conclusions.
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You can follow the links as easily as I can. I only have a few moments right now, but if you need help, I'll do it for you when I get back. Both both methodolgies are explained. You should ahve more trouble with the one you like. ;)

As did I Joe.
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You seem to have ignored what followed, which shed don't on the part you quoted and supported the main theme.


No, and I don't think I am cherry picking, rather pointing out how it was your initial posting that chose to highlight only that which agreed with your defense of Unions in the public school systems.
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No, I highlighted the major point of the entire article. I dare you to show I did not. Notice the title.

So, if my opinion doesn't agree with yours on this subject, then it must be that either my academic pedigree, ability to comprehend, ability to read the entire pap you offer, or simply because of some other dishonest approach to the debate. No, it could never be that your words here offer little more than text book projection on your case that shine sunlight into your own thought processes concerning the subject.
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Not what I said. I think you're quite bright, but drown yourself in partisan nonsense which is grounded in your specific world view. Instead of seeking to have your belief reaffirmed, read to learn something.


That Politician is the guy you voted for in 2008, and likely will again next year...:lamo

Come on Joe, face it. Unions in the public sector have little to do with real education, and more about indoctrination, self preservation of the teacher, and generally poor quality education at the expense of the tax payer.

j-mac
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As I've told you for years, who the politician is doesn't matter at all. You can't ignore studys because of what ANY politican says.
 
j-mac said:
Yep, or support more charter schools. I prefer the latter. [...]
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Are not charter schools a redistribution of wealth?
 
j-mac said:
speaking in general the graduation, and move on to higher education levels when compared public schools, and charter schools, charters seem to blow away public schools....Am I wrong on this?
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Yes, as I believe others have already noted.

Any cites supporting your anecdotal claim would be happily entertained, of course :cool:
 
Ockham said:
haymarket said:
And just how does a really extreme, rare and terribly out of the ordinary bad example from two people say anything that is relevant to classroom teachers and the unions who represent them around the nation?
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The OP didn't generalized or represent this as a union issue around the nation --- your comment is a strawman fallacy. [...]
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No, it's not, since haymarket made a general observation, rather than assigning any intent to the OP, or misrepresent what the OP said (which was very little).

Since the OP's commentary was practically nil, it is difficult to discern any intent at all in his OP. But give his stated political lean, it's probably safe to assume that the thread is intended to demean unions. Now you have someone to yell at -- me :2wave:

j-mac said:
It's all about the kids though....Right?
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j-mac said:
My only objection with Wiki on subjects like this are that anyone can alter the information, which leaves open to agenda what is on there. [...]
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Wikipedia has a wealth of information on the subject, all sourced. Of course, it doesn't agree with your premise, so I can understand its minimization in your post.

Charter school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As to open sources of information, such as Wikipedia, I can see how it would be advantageous to use a closed source information, such as Fox News for an example, which unknown people can edit in secrecy while leaving no public trace of the changes.
 
Boo Radley said:
[...] Yes, I linked it. And I read all of it. Your quote is followed by this:
Ms. Hoxby’s study, released in September, followed by three months the much broader investigation by a Stanford colleague, at the Center for Research on Education Outcomes [CREDO], which showed discouraging results for charters nationally.
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Furthermore, I would note that Hoxby seems to be somewhat discredited on this issue:

Stanford economist Caroline Hoxby criticized the [CREDO] study [which showed no clear advantage to charter schools [discussed above]], resulting in a written debate with the authors. She originally argued the study "contains a serious statistical mistake that causes a negative bias in its estimate of how charter schools affect achievement,"[SUP][49][/SUP] but after CREDO countered the remarks, saying Hoxby's "memo is riddled with serious errors"[SUP][50][/SUP] Hoxby revised her original criticism.[SUP][51][/SUP] The debate ended with a written "Finale" by CREDO that rebuts both Hoxby's original and revised criticism.[SUP][52][/SUP]

Charter school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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One of Hoxby's most-cited papers, "Does Competition among Public Schools Benefit Students and Taxpayers?" (American Economic Review, 2000), argues that increased school choice improves educational outcomes for all students. Her methods in the paper have attracted serious criticism: Jesse Rothstein (at the time, a graduate student at UC Berkeley under Professor David Card) published a paper claiming that he was unable to replicate her results.[SUP][6][/SUP] Hoxby published a response in defense of her original work a few months later.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP][SUP][9][/SUP] Stanford Professor Sean F. Reardon also published a critique of her evaluation of the effectiveness of New York City's charter schools claiming that her report “relie[d] on an inappropriate set of statistical models to analyze the data…[that] appear to overstate the cumulative effect of attending a charter school. In addition, the report does not provide enough technical discussion and detailed description to enable a reader to assess the validity of some aspects of the report’s methodology and results.” [SUP][10][/SUP]

Caroline Hoxby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Karl said:
Furthermore, I would note that Hoxby seems to be somewhat discredited on this issue:
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I'm not sure j cares. But I thank you for your effort on this.
 
j-mac said:
Who decided that you should speak for me Joe?

j-mac
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Didn't speak for you. Merely made a guess.

So, do you care, or would you prefer a source that says what you want? ;)
 
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Boo Radley said:
Didn't speak for you. Merely made a guess.

So, do you care, or would you prefer a source that says what you want? ;)
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An independent source with the facts will do. Do you have that?

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
An independent source with the facts will do. Do you have that?

j-mac
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Some have bene given. You have independent sources, accurate sources. Little more can be given. There are plenty of links for you to follow in order to investigate if you want to know. If you care.
 
Boo Radley said:
Some have bene given. You have independent sources, accurate sources. Little more can be given. There are plenty of links for you to follow in order to investigate if you want to know. If you care.
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Some are good, others start out with an agenda driven pov....But in the end, it is cases like this that only highlight the problem with public sector unions, and a good start as to why it is that much in our government is corrupt.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Some are good, others start out with an agenda driven pov....But in the end, it is cases like this that only highlight the problem with public sector unions, and a good start as to why it is that much in our government is corrupt.

j-mac
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First, you often see agendas where there isn't one, but I keep telling you bias isn't the problem. Goerge Will for example is biased, but he is accurate. The WSJ is often biased, but accurate. Accuracy is what matters. I criticized many of the sources you used not to to bias, but due to poor accuracy.

And you're going to have to explain that leap to unions. Unions may well be a small problem, but they having nothing to do with Charter schools not doing any better, or most of the factors involved in education. You could close down all uinons and hardly notice a difference in the classroom.
 
Boo Radley said:
First, you often see agendas where there isn't one, but I keep telling you bias isn't the problem. Goerge Will for example is biased, but he is accurate. The WSJ is often biased, but accurate. Accuracy is what matters. I criticized many of the sources you used not to to bias, but due to poor accuracy.

And you're going to have to explain that leap to unions. Unions may well be a small problem, but they having nothing to do with Charter schools not doing any better, or most of the factors involved in education. You could close down all uinons and hardly notice a difference in the classroom.
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And you will seemingly go to any lengths to dismiss any argument that doesn't comport to your own view on things. Regardless of our diversion talking about Charter schools, or that you gave a cherry picked controversial study that you use to support telling yourself that public schools are just fine, when we know that they are not fine is of no consequence to me. The original post has to do with union hacks gaming the system, now some honest liberals have put on record that they didn't like this, and thought that it was wrong, yet you want to continue to derail, and play your game of obfuscation, and dismissal....It really is pathetic, and should be beneath you.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
And you will seemingly go to any lengths to dismiss any argument that doesn't comport to your own view on things. Regardless of our diversion talking about Charter schools, or that you gave a cherry picked controversial study that you use to support telling yourself that public schools are just fine, when we know that they are not fine is of no consequence to me. The original post has to do with union hacks gaming the system, now some honest liberals have put on record that they didn't like this, and thought that it was wrong, yet you want to continue to derail, and play your game of obfuscation, and dismissal....It really is pathetic, and should be beneath you.

j-mac
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As pointed out, that which I said you wouldn't likely care about, the study that was cherry picked was the one YOU support. You're the one who makes excessive excuses for anything that doesn't affirm your beliefs. Link after link has been provided, to which you look for something insignificant to try and dismiss it over.

And when we divert, together, from the original post, you can't be honest and pretend we didn't. Nor can you blame unions for every problem under the sun. That is whay we're left to conclude that it is really teachers and not unions, working people and not unions that is really at the core of the distain. This can be said because the complaint is always about things unions don't have any control over.
 
j-mac said:
Some are good, others start out with an agenda driven pov....But in the end, it is cases like this that only highlight the problem with public sector unions, and a good start as to why it is that much in our government is corrupt.
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Ockham said:
The OP didn't generalized or represent this as a union issue around the nation [...]
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Well, I guess we can put that to rest now :cool:
 
j-mac said:
And you will seemingly go to any lengths to dismiss any argument that doesn't comport to your own view on things. Regardless of our diversion talking about Charter schools, or that you gave a cherry picked controversial study that you use to support telling yourself that public schools are just fine [...]
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Well, speaking of strawmen, just wanted to highlight that as a classic example.

Bottom line, a rational analysis would be that scholastic issues in general are representative of societal issues in general, such as the breakdown in the family unit over the past several decades. Troubled kids from meager income single-parent homes is hardly a recipe for scholastic success. A re-segregation, which I suspect is the main reason the right are such charter school fans, is hardly the solution to that issue.

As to hacks, they will always be working the margins; no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
What are the cost differences between the two?
 
Boo Radley said:
As pointed out, that which I said you wouldn't likely care about, the study that was cherry picked was the one YOU support. You're the one who makes excessive excuses for anything that doesn't affirm your beliefs. Link after link has been provided, to which you look for something insignificant to try and dismiss it over.

And when we divert, together, from the original post, you can't be honest and pretend we didn't. Nor can you blame unions for every problem under the sun. That is whay we're left to conclude that it is really teachers and not unions, working people and not unions that is really at the core of the distain. This can be said because the complaint is always about things unions don't have any control over.
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that's a good one Joe...I a true working class truck driver, non union, have disdain for 'working people'.....heh, heh....What a joke....Get back on topic will you?

Do you denounce what the two union hacks did, and how much of that graft do you think exists in unions today?

j-mac
 
Karl said:
Well, speaking of strawmen, just wanted to highlight that as a classic example.
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Well considering that an entire conversation was going on and you focused on a part of that which I am trying to steer back to the original topic, no strawman exists, and reading comprehension is in order on your part, but I think that the real highlight here is in your use of the strawman accusation, one has to wonder if you are yourself a product of the public schools systems, and that would be strong guess considering your lack of understanding of what exactly a strawman argument is.

Bottom line, a rational analysis would be that scholastic issues in general are representative of societal issues in general, such as the breakdown in the family unit over the past several decades.
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Yes, please do tell us which political ideology laid the foundation that the father was not needed in the household.....

Troubled kids from meager income single-parent homes is hardly a recipe for scholastic success.
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Neither are popular Charters in DC that were showing remarkable success, and the letting go of the successful School board President, in favor of a lib hack while they destroyed the system in DC as a payoff to the unions...Yeah, that helps the kids....

A re-segregation, which I suspect is the main reason the right are such charter school fans, is hardly the solution to that issue.
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Great, so now people that want a better education system, but disagree with progressives race to the bottom are just racists, is that right? What a joke progressivism is.

As to hacks, they will always be working the margins; no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Always the call of the crooks, 'nothing to see here, move along folks.'


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
that's a good one Joe...I a true working class truck driver, non union, have disdain for 'working people'.....heh, heh....What a joke....Get back on topic will you?

Do you denounce what the two union hacks did, and how much of that graft do you think exists in unions today?

j-mac
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It's not usual j. There's a fellow in Mississippi, a black man, who favors the KKK. It happens. Often the oppressed adopt the views of the oppressor. now, you're not exactly being oppressed, but you have adopted the views of those taking most advantage of you, benefitting from your distain for those who aren't wealthy, which includes working folk.

As for the hacks, of course. Unlike you though, I don't leap to denouncing all teachers, all union memebers, all people not wealthy. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
It's not usual j. There's a fellow in Mississippi, a black man, who favors the KKK. It happens. Often the oppressed adopt the views of the oppressor. now, you're not exactly being oppressed, but you have adopted the views of those taking most advantage of you, benefitting from your distain for those who aren't wealthy, which includes working folk.
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hmmmmm...I see, so I suffer from Stockholm syndrome of sorts eh? heh, heh....And how do you come to that conclusion?

As for the hacks, of course. Unlike you though, I don't leap to denouncing all teachers, all union memebers, all people not wealthy.
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Ok, so you only attack wealthy people?

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
hmmmmm...I see, so I suffer from Stockholm syndrome of sorts eh? heh, heh....And how do you come to that conclusion?
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I don't think that is the term for it, but you do support thingsagainst your own interests.

Ok, so you only attack wealthy people?

j-mac
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Attack? No. I don't think I've ever done that. I just support workers and vote for things that are in their interests and against things that are not.
 
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