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Thread: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

  1. #51
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, Now since this is the fall back position of yours that you seem to have been using for years now when you can't have a rational discussion on the facts. I want you to document for me, when was the last time that I used any of the three sources you mention as anything other than opinion, and when I last used them period!

    If you are not going to have an honest discussion on the topic, then don't respond. Thanks.
    J, the fact is you have. I'm not going to go looking as you cherry picked on this.

    I am not missing the point at all, please show me the methodology, and how your study starts out with a purely objective hypothesis and we can go from there. But so far all you are offering is a giant 'Nuh uh' as rebuttal, completely refusing to even consider other studies on the subject that disagree with your study's conclusions.
    You can follow the links as easily as I can. I only have a few moments right now, but if you need help, I'll do it for you when I get back. Both both methodolgies are explained. You should ahve more trouble with the one you like.

    As did I Joe.
    You seem to have ignored what followed, which shed don't on the part you quoted and supported the main theme.


    No, and I don't think I am cherry picking, rather pointing out how it was your initial posting that chose to highlight only that which agreed with your defense of Unions in the public school systems.
    No, I highlighted the major point of the entire article. I dare you to show I did not. Notice the title.

    So, if my opinion doesn't agree with yours on this subject, then it must be that either my academic pedigree, ability to comprehend, ability to read the entire pap you offer, or simply because of some other dishonest approach to the debate. No, it could never be that your words here offer little more than text book projection on your case that shine sunlight into your own thought processes concerning the subject.
    Not what I said. I think you're quite bright, but drown yourself in partisan nonsense which is grounded in your specific world view. Instead of seeking to have your belief reaffirmed, read to learn something.


    That Politician is the guy you voted for in 2008, and likely will again next year...

    Come on Joe, face it. Unions in the public sector have little to do with real education, and more about indoctrination, self preservation of the teacher, and generally poor quality education at the expense of the tax payer.

    j-mac
    As I've told you for years, who the politician is doesn't matter at all. You can't ignore studys because of what ANY politican says.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #52
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yep, or support more charter schools. I prefer the latter. [...]
    Are not charter schools a redistribution of wealth?

  3. #53
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    speaking in general the graduation, and move on to higher education levels when compared public schools, and charter schools, charters seem to blow away public schools....Am I wrong on this?
    Yes, as I believe others have already noted.

    Any cites supporting your anecdotal claim would be happily entertained, of course

  4. #54
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    So you generalizing about people who generalize.


    In general we are all guilty.
    Pardon moi, but isn't that a generalization?

  5. #55
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And just how does a really extreme, rare and terribly out of the ordinary bad example from two people say anything that is relevant to classroom teachers and the unions who represent them around the nation?
    The OP didn't generalized or represent this as a union issue around the nation --- your comment is a strawman fallacy. [...]
    No, it's not, since haymarket made a general observation, rather than assigning any intent to the OP, or misrepresent what the OP said (which was very little).

    Since the OP's commentary was practically nil, it is difficult to discern any intent at all in his OP. But give his stated political lean, it's probably safe to assume that the thread is intended to demean unions. Now you have someone to yell at -- me

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac, in the OP View Post
    It's all about the kids though....Right?

  6. #56
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    My only objection with Wiki on subjects like this are that anyone can alter the information, which leaves open to agenda what is on there. [...]
    Wikipedia has a wealth of information on the subject, all sourced. Of course, it doesn't agree with your premise, so I can understand its minimization in your post.

    Charter school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As to open sources of information, such as Wikipedia, I can see how it would be advantageous to use a closed source information, such as Fox News for an example, which unknown people can edit in secrecy while leaving no public trace of the changes.


  7. #57
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley, replying to j-mac View Post
    [...] Yes, I linked it. And I read all of it. Your quote is followed by this:
    Ms. Hoxby’s study, released in September, followed by three months the much broader investigation by a Stanford colleague, at the Center for Research on Education Outcomes [CREDO], which showed discouraging results for charters nationally.
    Furthermore, I would note that Hoxby seems to be somewhat discredited on this issue:

    Stanford economist Caroline Hoxby criticized the [CREDO] study [which showed no clear advantage to charter schools [discussed above]], resulting in a written debate with the authors. She originally argued the study "contains a serious statistical mistake that causes a negative bias in its estimate of how charter schools affect achievement,"[49] but after CREDO countered the remarks, saying Hoxby's "memo is riddled with serious errors"[50] Hoxby revised her original criticism.[51] The debate ended with a written "Finale" by CREDO that rebuts both Hoxby's original and revised criticism.[52]

    Charter school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    One of Hoxby's most-cited papers, "Does Competition among Public Schools Benefit Students and Taxpayers?" (American Economic Review, 2000), argues that increased school choice improves educational outcomes for all students. Her methods in the paper have attracted serious criticism: Jesse Rothstein (at the time, a graduate student at UC Berkeley under Professor David Card) published a paper claiming that he was unable to replicate her results.[6] Hoxby published a response in defense of her original work a few months later.[7][8][9] Stanford Professor Sean F. Reardon also published a critique of her evaluation of the effectiveness of New York City's charter schools claiming that her report “relie[d] on an inappropriate set of statistical models to analyze the data…[that] appear to overstate the cumulative effect of attending a charter school. In addition, the report does not provide enough technical discussion and detailed description to enable a reader to assess the validity of some aspects of the report’s methodology and results.” [10]

    Caroline Hoxby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Furthermore, I would note that Hoxby seems to be somewhat discredited on this issue:
    I'm not sure j cares. But I thank you for your effort on this.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not sure j cares. But I thank you for your effort on this.
    Who decided that you should speak for me Joe?

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #60
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    Re: 2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Who decided that you should speak for me Joe?

    j-mac
    Didn't speak for you. Merely made a guess.

    So, do you care, or would you prefer a source that says what you want?
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 10-28-11 at 02:15 PM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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