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Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

Caine said:
The sidewalk is rarely ever closed (except in cases of construction, for safety reasons).... you want to assemble at all hours of the day and night... go there.

I think its funny how people think all normal rules of society can be broken in the name of protest.........

So what you are saying is that I can't go play basketball at the courts at the local park after hours, but If I am there for the purpose of "assembling" then I can go? Abso-****ing-lutely ignorant.
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So instead of stupid insults directed at me, how about you just calmly present your argument? A little civility maybe? You don't have to, it would just be nice.

Protest is more important that basketball. While I think there are reasonable rules which can be put on parks for camping and what have you, some rights are too important to let fall to petty laws. Protest and assembly, due to the necessity of these being allowed in order to maintain a free Republic, are some of those. I would most certainly think it reasonable to excuse the camping laws for such a large protest.
 
Pinkie said:
Well, I consider urban green spaces to be "necessary to the general welfare". You seem to think that unless a riot or a cholera epidemic breaks out, the city and its residents have no interests to protect.
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Can you argue as to why "urban green spaces" are necessary to the general welfare, keeping in mind general welfare refers to all of us, not just a few citizens in a city? Also, I have no idea how you came up with the second sentence. It's clearly not true.

Pinkie said:
Ever been to a farm after it had hosted a festival with thousands of attendees for a weekend? Did you happen to notice all the groundcover had been destroyed, the land was nothing but ozzing mud, litter tended to accumulate, etc.?
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We never rented our farm out for such purposes. It had animals and plants on it instead.
 
Pinkie said:
Can ANYONE tell what the OWS'ers are "protesting"? Against whom do they have a complaint and what do they want done to correct it? What are their demands? Does ANYONE know or do we all just get to infer whatever we like about their intent?
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Can you honestly not tell what they're protesting? It's the aggressive entanglement of State and Corporate entities. They are pissed off at the corporate capitalist model we now find ourselves under. I didn't think this one was so hard. The other questions are tougher given that the overall movement is not coherent, but that first one has been obvious to anyone willing to open their eyes and look for themselves. It's demonstrating a magnitude issue, which I suppose has its merits in some sense.
 
Ockham said:
Well, because someone orders you to do something doesn't always mean it's right, or that you should do it.
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Amen Brother. Now read what you wrote.
 
Pinkie said:
I have protested a lot....I always walked in a parade; I never did a sit-in. Here are some things I have protested for:

* Free Soviet Jews. (Done.)

* End The Vietnam War. (Done.)

* Civil Rights. (Done.)

* Feminisim a la abortion rights, equal pay, etc. (Not done.)

Can ANYONE tell what the OWS'ers are "protesting"? Against whom do they have a complaint and what do they want done to correct it? What are their demands? Does ANYONE know or do we all just get to infer whatever we like about their intent?

BTW, I have never broken the law in any protest and IMO, a sit-in at a college president's office is (legally) not comparable to occupying city parks for weeks on end.
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We all need a copy of Pinkie's protest etiquette. Apparently some people are not properly protesting. <gasp>
 
Zyphlin said:
So essentially this was a much ado about nothing. A judge did a rather standard thing, putting a temporary hold on enforcing a law while they're making a decision, made a decision and then things went forward. The horror.

Our legal system is founded on principles that shows its focus is on giving the PUBLIC the benefit of the doubt, not the government. Thus innocent until proven guilty. If a law is questionable it is far more fair to the public and in line with our countries legal philosophy to hold off on punishing them until the law is ruled upon and IF its found to be legitimate THEN begin to punish them rather than punish them first and if it turns out the law was wrong try to rectify the situation.

More than that its more fiscally responsable as well as you're not having to expend government resources in fixing the mistake you previously made by continuing to enforce an unreasonable law.

The Judge put a hold on a law for a minute amount of time, made a decision, and its going forward. The fact it got this much of a hubub, and such a partisan one, is sad.
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Imposing a TRO on a government act is NOT "standard" practice. It's an extraordinary remedy, I have never actually seen one in my own career of some 25 years of so. Never even seen a petition for one.

It's not even standard practice to TRO a private party. And this TRO was improper on its face.
 
Zyphlin said:
sp_1204_03.jpg

"We Want More Money"
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Pinkie said:
Imposing a TRO on a government act is NOT "standard" practice. It's an extraordinary remedy, I have never actually seen one in my own career of some 25 years of so. Never even seen a petition for one.
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You work in law? Also, didn't some judge issue a TRO on a government law coming out in Wisconsin back during the whole collective bargaining thing?
 
Mickey Shane said:
We all need a copy of Pinkie's protest etiquette. Apparently some people are not properly protesting. <gasp>
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A protest is not a tea dance. I'm complaining about their manners, sure. But mainly I'm complaining at the lack of stated demands, purpose, target, etc.

There's a difference between "protesting" and "bull****ting".

mau-mauing.jpg
 
Ikari said:
You work in law? Also, didn't some judge issue a TRO on a government law coming out in Wisconsin back during the whole collective bargaining thing?
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Yes, a Wisconsin state judge TRO'd a law BEFORE it went into effect. The basis for the request for relief was procedural defects in passing the law which would render it legally meaningless (void ab initia) if proven. It dealt with the new Wisconsin anti-union law.
 
Pinkie said:
A protest is not a tea dance. I'm complaining about their manners, sure. But mainly I'm complaining at the lack of stated demands, purpose, target, etc.

There's a difference between "protesting" and "bull****ting".

View attachment 67117052
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This sort of protest seems to be more of a new experiment born from social media outlets and the ability to assemble people. It's not quite going to look the same. While there is main purpose and cause, because they have collected so many varying ideologies to protest the perceived problem, there will not be a coherent message from the group on HOW you address it. Various subgroups may have ideas, they may even conflict with the ideas of other subgroups. But all agree that there is an overall problem. This is more likely a demonstration of magnitude, which could be a useful measure.
 
Pinkie said:
Yes, a Wisconsin state judge TRO'd a law BEFORE it went into effect. The basis for the request for relief was procedural defects in passing the law which would render it legally meaningless (void ab initia) if proven. It dealt with the new Wisconsin anti-union law.
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Yeah, and this law was then challenged in a new way, that is to say whether or not the camping law can be used to infringe upon protest and assembly rights (apparently the answer is yes). So it was issued while that debate happened. I don't necessarily see it as wrong particularly given that we are dealing with protest and assembly rights.
 
Ikari said:
Can you honestly not tell what they're protesting? It's the aggressive entanglement of State and Corporate entities. They are pissed off at the corporate capitalist model we now find ourselves under. I didn't think this one was so hard. The other questions are tougher given that the overall movement is not coherent, but that first one has been obvious to anyone willing to open their eyes and look for themselves. It's demonstrating a magnitude issue, which I suppose has its merits in some sense.
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What bull****. Someone is funding this, stage-managing it, etc. Prolly Soros, but who knows anymore?

These are mostly white young adults who have too much time and not enough comprehension of their own nation's laws and businesses.
 
Pinkie said:
What bull****. Someone is funding this, stage-managing it, etc. Prolly Soros, but who knows anymore?

These are mostly white young adults who have too much time and not enough comprehension of their own nation's laws and businesses.
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So your response is that "someone is funding this" and that all the people who make up the protest don't know what they're talking about? Something that went world wide? None of those people know what they're talking about?

The bull**** seems to be coming from you.
 
Ikari said:
Yeah, and this law was then challenged in a new way, that is to say whether or not the camping law can be used to infringe upon protest and assembly rights (apparently the answer is yes). So it was issued while that debate happened. I don't necessarily see it as wrong particularly given that we are dealing with protest and assembly rights.
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One more time:

A TRO, especially against a government act, is an extraordinary remedy. Ergo, it is by defintion not the "usual remedy".

The standard for granting one is not that the moving party has asserted his constitutional rights are being affected.

They have to show (1) irreparable harm will occur if the TRO is not granted. Having to wait two weeks is not "irreparable harm".

They also have to show (2) a substantial likelihood that they will prevail on the merits. "A snowball's chance in hell" is not a "substantial likelihood".

 
Pinkie said:
Well, I consider urban green spaces to be "necessary to the general welfare". You seem to think that unless a riot or a cholera epidemic breaks out, the city and its residents have no interests to protect.

Ever been to a farm after it had hosted a festival with thousands of attendees for a weekend? Did you happen to notice all the groundcover had been destroyed, the land was nothing but ozzing mud, litter tended to accumulate, etc.?
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There is a large Rainbow Family presence at OWS.

They have held an annual peace protest, each year in a different location, without permit or permission.

Their record with Forestry is exemplary.

Their performance in leaving the various sites just like they found exceeds even the Sierra Club.

When their cleanup crews leave the site a couple months after the event, only an expert can tell they were there. A year later, even experts have a hard time telling that upwards of 20,000 people had been there for weeks.

Trails hardened by feet are tilled and replanted with native vegetation. Every speck of trash is picked up, including trash left by others. Firepits and latrines are erased.

So I'm going to suspend judgement on "damage" and "cleanup". Especially when we see memes like "OWS is anti-semitic" everywhere, based on literally two or three examples, the most prevalent being of one black fellow who is actually denounced IN one of the videos. And the most venal being on the part of some local jackass dressed up in his chick-scamming best.
 
Ikari said:
So your response is that "someone is funding this" and that all the people who make up the protest don't know what they're talking about? Something that went world wide? None of those people know what they're talking about?

The bull**** seems to be coming from you.
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First tell me, who's doing any actual talking? The OWSers are not communicating with me by any means other than the signs they're carrying. These OWers did not want the reporter to sit in on their meeting with the city or see their proposed settlement agreement. Apparently, what they want is a big, fat secret.

And again, I can draw no logical relationship between the City of Cincinnati government and the Great Recession.
 
What if...? said:
There is a large Rainbow Family presence at OWS.

They have held an annual peace protest, each year in a different location, without permit or permission.

Their record with Forestry is exemplary.

Their performance in leaving the various sites just like they found exceeds even the Sierra Club.

When their cleanup crews leave the site a couple months after the event, only an expert can tell they were there. A year later, even experts have a hard time telling that upwards of 20,000 people had been there for weeks.

Trails hardened by feet are tilled and replanted with native vegetation. Every speck of trash is picked up, including trash left by others. Firepits and latrines are erased.

So I'm going to suspend judgement on "damage" and "cleanup". Especially when we see memes like "OWS is anti-semitic" everywhere, based on literally two or three examples, the most prevalent being of one black fellow who is actually denounced IN one of the videos. And the most venal being on the part of some local jackass dressed up in his chick-scamming best.
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I lived in Cincinnati for like 10 years. Trust me, these people will disappoint you and ruin the parkland they occupy. The city's not known as a hotbed of treehuggers.
 
Pinkie said:
One more time:

A TRO, especially against a government act, is an extraordinary remedy. Ergo, it is by defintion not the "usual remedy".

The standard for granting one is not that the moving party has asserted his constitutional rights are being affected.

They have to show (1) irreparable harm will occur if the TRO is not granted. Having to wait two weeks is not "irreparable harm".

They also have to show (2) a substantial likelihood that they will prevail on the merits. "A snowball's chance in hell" is not a "substantial likelihood".
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In protest being force to abdicate the protest for a few weeks is irreparable harm. From what you percieved as "a snowball's chance in hell", others apparently (and those who apparently have careers in law and are judges and such) thought there was at least enough merit to consider the arguments. The people must always be able to redress the government.

This all seemed nice and open in our system as a proper check on law being executed against the rights of the individual. They even ruled the way you wanted. You can arbitrarily set times in a park and claim no one can be there during said times (with no constraint on how one defines those times) to infringe upon assembly and protest rights. I don't see what the big deal here is other than the fact that so many people are blindly against OWS that they are near the mouth foaming stage perpetually. It's protest, protest is good for a healthy Republic. We must protect it and uphold it to its maximum.
 
Pinkie said:
First tell me, who's doing any actual talking? The OWSers are not communicating with me by any means other than the signs they're carrying. These OWers did not want the reporter to sit in on their meeting with the city or see their proposed settlement agreement. Apparently, what they want is a big, fat secret.
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It's a protest, they're all talking. What are they protesting against? They are protesting the massive entanglement of State and Corporate. The unfair advantage shared by specific market entities through government force and funded through tax payer dollar. What we have now is Corporate Capitalism, and that's what they are protesting. I don't think you're being very honest with this subject.
 
The bull**** seems to be coming from you.
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Ikari, I could care less if you use such language towards me. But it is hypocritical of you to demand civility from others and then toss these verbal turds at me.

I dunno why you wanna go all ad hominem on my ass, but hey, I'm wearing my big girl panties. I just think if you join a race to the bottom you should be prepared to accept the low standards you set for all posts, including ones responding to you.

Unless you feel you are somehow more deserving of civility than I?
 
Ikari said:
It's a protest, they're all talking. What are they protesting against? They are protesting the massive entanglement of State and Corporate. The unfair advantage shared by specific market entities through government force and funded through tax payer dollar. What we have now is Corporate Capitalism, and that's what they are protesting. I don't think you're being very honest with this subject.
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Again with the ad hominem?
 
Pinkie said:
Ikari, I could care less if you use such language towards me. But it is hypocritical of you to demand civility from others and then toss these verbal turds at me.
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You threw it at me first. What the hell is your damned problem? You think you can just say my arguments are bull**** and then if I return the favor start crying cause I asked Caine (who is someone I have respect for and why I asked him not to immediately jump on the insult wagon) not to start with insult.

Jesus Christ. If you can't take it, don't dish it. And is this deflection all you have left for your arguments here?
 
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