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Thread: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I fall close to the far end of the Conservative political spectrum. I'm an Authoritarian. My utopian societal concept includes large doses of the ideals set forth in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" universe and Harlon Ellison's "Repent Harlequin Said the Tick-Tock Man". I believe that the Founding Fathers were incredibly naive in many of the things they did.
    Can you define "Authoritarian" for me as a political philosophy, Tigger? I never saw the term before I joined DP.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Can you define "Authoritarian" for me as a political philosophy, Tigger? I never saw the term before I joined DP.
    Authoritarianism is the political ideal that the Government needs to be in charge of almost everything. The idea that the general populace is not capable of making the right decision, and therefore needs to have large amounts of their society and culture dictated to them for their own good. In my specific view it's also a system based on a caste system, not unlike the one that existed in Medieval Europe. You have a class of Citizens who are allowed more freedom (though not as much as Americans currently enjoy) and non-citizens who enjoy even fewer freedoms.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Uh, no. I approve of the ACLU...I'd support their right to assemble and protest no matter what their cause was. Of course, you don't know me IRL, so you'll have to accept that (or not) as article of faith.

    Nonetheless, it's true. IMO, the proper constraint on their rights has nothing to do with the content of their speech. I never complained about any Tea Party event, and the last time I complained about a group's conduct in protesting, it was about the Wisconsin union workers filling the state capitol building far beyond its capacity....because it was a fire hazard.
    Mea Culpa.... I should have used the word inconvenience as opposed to offend. And I fully recognize your continued position of supporting constitutional rights and applaud you for it, I never intended to claim otherwise, as such I stand corrected.

    While the fire hazard argument does in fact hold weight with me (it has the potential to violate the "peaceably" language of the 1st amendment) I just don't hold local nuisance ordinances at the same level as public safety requirements.... But that is simply my opinion.

    I am curious though.... in response to "Uh, no."
    Are you saying There aren't numerous posts asserting they don't know what they stand for then also claiming (albeit tacitly) that they don't agree with them?
    Are you saying that there aren't numerous posts that claim OWS is an unorganized mob yet later suggesting some group, organization or individual is secretly behind it all?
    Are you saying that there aren't posts here that acknowledge OWSer's do in fact enjoy first amendment protections ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.") yet somehow local nuisance ordinances trump those protections?

    And to nip a potential bud, I can already see "outbreak of disease" argument coming up in an attempt to paint this as a public safety issue but we are no where near that level of unsanitary conditions for that sort of situation to occur. No I don't have specific data or expert testimony regarding this.... but neither does anyone else and if they do I would love to read it.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Here this is my point....

    source

    Vice Mayor Roxanne Qualls told The Enquirer, “I believe in the constitutionally protected right of speech, right of assembly, and right to petition government to redress grievances. I do not believe that 'occupying' public space by camping out and violating regulation designed to manage use and ensure reasonable access is protected. I do not think the protesters should be allowed to stay overnight.”
    Do we really want to go down the road where local ordinance "designed to manage use and ensure reasonable access" trumps Constitutional protections? I can understand public safety issues regarding constitutional right... i.e. not yelling fire in a crowded theater, highjack on a plane, speech that incites riots or violence upon others, and yes perhaps local fire safety violations as you pointed out. You're the lawyer not me, but aren't we supposed to be enjoying a system of laws that are gauged with regards to their Constitutionality as opposed to a system where Constitutional Rights are gauged as to there adherence to local "use and reasonable access" regulation?

    EDIT: If the vice mayor is saying that protesters being there during normal business hours is fine just not over night, then you can ignore her "reasonable access claim" as no one is allowed in the park after, what is it 10 pm? In essence if they are only filling the park during normal business hours reasonable access protects are still being violated. That leaves use with the "manage use" portion and this sounds a lot like we (local government) don't have to allow you to protest here simply because we don't want to allow it.
    Last edited by Swit; 10-22-11 at 06:31 PM.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    I can't begin to tell you how much I loathe our current judicial system. The judge in this case is a perfect example of the judicial system usurps congress. Legally speaking, he/she may not enforce or write policy. It's their job to interpret the constitution and make a ruling. They must not lean right or left when they come up with their decision.

    With that being said, I applaud the Cincinnati police for writing these tickets. It's gonna be interesting to see what the cops do with this federal judges "order." My hope is that you'll ignore this unconstitutional order and call out the judge for attempting to legislate from the bench.

    The OWS is a movement that can't be ignored. I pretty much despise all of their arguments. The only people that I sympathize with are the END THE FED folks. The other people who claim the We are the 99% consist of the utterly ignorant and cling onto governing concepts. All of which have failed miserably.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimminey View Post
    I can't begin to tell you how much I loathe our current judicial system. The judge in this case is a perfect example of the judicial system usurps congress. Legally speaking, he/she may not enforce or write policy. It's their job to interpret the constitution and make a ruling. They must not lean right or left when they come up with their decision.
    The judge that issued the or was not usurping congress but rather usurping Cincinati's lawmakers in judging whether or not a violation of Constitutionally protected right was occurring. Said court quickly came to the desicion they were not and promptly lifted the order. I am not sure I understand what the problem here is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimminey View Post
    With that being said, I applaud the Cincinnati police for writing these tickets. It's gonna be interesting to see what the cops do with this federal judges "order." My hope is that you'll ignore this unconstitutional order and call out the judge for attempting to legislate from the bench.
    The judge wasn't legislating from the bench he (maybe she I don't know) was hearing a case claiming that citizen's Constitutional rights were being infringed upon. After consideration said judge deem the citizen's arguments wanting and thus lifted the TRO

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimminey View Post
    The OWS is a movement that can't be ignored. I pretty much despise all of their arguments. The only people that I sympathize with are the END THE FED folks. The other people who claim the We are the 99% consist of the utterly ignorant and cling onto governing concepts. All of which have failed miserably.
    Your opinion is Duly noted. I also support the abolishment of the FED but that's a discussion for another thread. I am curious though.... which governing concepts do you perceive as failing miserably? Personally I tend to believe they are rallying against cetain governmental policies not for. People generally don't take to the streets and shout "Keep things the same.... Keep things the same"
    my short list of failed governmental policy that I believe they are rallying against:
    1. Trickle down and supply side economics
    2. Big Corp bailouts and influence in politics
    3. The general dismantling of the power of labor organizations

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Authoritarianism is the political ideal that the Government needs to be in charge of almost everything. The idea that the general populace is not capable of making the right decision, and therefore needs to have large amounts of their society and culture dictated to them for their own good. In my specific view it's also a system based on a caste system, not unlike the one that existed in Medieval Europe. You have a class of Citizens who are allowed more freedom (though not as much as Americans currently enjoy) and non-citizens who enjoy even fewer freedoms.
    Sounds like some kind of Communism crap to me..
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Sounds like some kind of Communism crap to me..
    Sort of. Communism is an Authoritarian system as well. The difference is that Communism is about trying to make everyone EQUAL. The form of Authoritarianism I prefer is all about making sure those who do the right things advance in society and those who don't end up groveling in the streets to try and keep from starving to death.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Sort of. Communism is an Authoritarian system as well. The difference is that Communism is about trying to make everyone EQUAL. The form of Authoritarianism I prefer is all about making sure those who do the right things advance in society and those who don't end up groveling in the streets to try and keep from starving to death.
    Well I would argue that communism is more about the working class being more in control with regard the result of their production than being equal... but W/E

    Have you ever read John Rawls "A Theory of Justice"? In particular the concepts behind of the "veil of ignorance" and/or the "original position"? quick link

    EDIT: Can I ask who gets to decide what the definition of "right things" is, more importantly what if your personal view of this concept differs from that of person who decides this?
    Last edited by Swit; 10-23-11 at 01:19 AM.

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    Re: Federal Judge Orders Cincinnati Not To Ticket OWS'ers

    Well being a Kentuckian that lives a mile from the "forbidden zone" I can tell you Cincinnati is a giant **** pile. I don't know exactly what there is to protest about Cincinnati other than it being one giant pile of suck. If a nuclear bomb went off that somehow only destroyed everything in the Cincinnati area America would be a better place. The only good things that come out of Cincinnati is Krogers and P&G the rest of Cincinnati can suck it.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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