• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

HS Student Refuses To Recite Mexican Pledge Of Allegiance

Pinkie said:
I don't think so, obviously. I've already laid out my reasoning in other posts, so if you've read the entire thread, I bounce this back to you. What's so preposterous about inferring an intent to promote the interests of illegal Mexican aliens in the US in that teacher's assignment?
Click to expand...

How in the bleeping hell does this assignment by a legal resident who happens to be from Mexico promote the interests of illegal Mexican aliens? The mental gymnastics you're performing here are truly epic.
 
Pinkie said:
Did you mean to direct this at me, as well as others on this thread? I'm not being snarky; I'm curious. Can you explain how, if so?
Click to expand...
Simply in general.

There is a tendency for liberals and conservatives to get sucked into their dualistic polemic conflict on a matter. When that happens in an issue where unfairness is alleged, the one feeling put upon complains a bit while the other just doesn't see the problem. Once that dualistic polemic conflict begins, the truth of the matter is seldom discovered, further alienation often being the result.

Coming to this realization for myself, having been at one time liberal and another time conservative, helped me to gently remove both fingers from the oriental finger puzzle, as I really was more interested in getting at the truth of these matters than defending a political spectrum perspective.

I don't think problems can really be solved until the truth of a matter is faced, as hard as that sometimes is to do.
 
Last edited:
Learning about Mexican culture and history is entirely appropriate in a Spanish language class because it offers context and because Mexicans are going to be the majority of Spanish speakers that an American student will encounter. A little bit of culture ain't gonna kill them.

Pledging allegiance to a foreign nation inside our schools that have been paid for with our money, however, is completely inappropriate and the teacher should be reprimanded. However, the article also notes that the teacher offered an alternative assignment-- a report on the Mexican revolution-- that was entirely appropriate and which the student likewise refused to participate in. Her poor grade is a proper reflection of her refusal to participate in class, and should stand.
 
Arcana XV said:
How in the bleeping hell does this assignment by a legal resident who happens to be from Mexico promote the interests of illegal Mexican aliens? The mental gymnastics you're performing here are truly epic.
Click to expand...

A foreigner comes into this country and urges our children to pledge allegiance to their home country, and you don't see the connection to the millions of that foreigner's countrymen that are illegally residing within our country?
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
Learning about Mexican culture and history is entirely appropriate in a Spanish language class because it offers context and because Mexicans are going to be the majority of Spanish speakers that an American student will encounter. A little bit of culture ain't gonna kill them.

Pledging allegiance to a foreign nation inside our schools that have been paid for with our money, however, is completely inappropriate and the teacher should be reprimanded. However, the article also notes that the teacher offered an alternative assignment-- a report on the Mexican revolution-- that was entirely appropriate and which the student likewise refused to participate in. Her poor grade is a proper reflection of her refusal to participate in class, and should stand.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of that. But I still don't understand how reciting the words to some foreign pledge that means nothing to anyone other than the citizens of the nation in question is in any way inappropriate. Words only have value if you actually mean them.
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
A foreigner comes into this country and urges our children to pledge allegiance to their home country, and you don't see the connection to the millions of that foreigner's countrymen that are illegally residing within our country?
Click to expand...

I honestly don't see what the illegal status of others have to do with her. She's a legal resident. Unless what she did in that class is actually illegal I don't see what the problem is. Is it illegal to recite other country's pledges or sing other country's anthems in your country?
 
Arcana XV said:
How in the bleeping hell does this assignment by a legal resident who happens to be from Mexico promote the interests of illegal Mexican aliens? The mental gymnastics you're performing here are truly epic.
Click to expand...

The teacher assigned the Mexican Pledge Of Allegiance; I think, but can't really tell for sure, she had the students stand to recite it, she did this to teach a lesson in "hispanic culture", because she's a (presumably legal) Mexican residing in the US, and because she wanted to raise awareness of/instill pride over Mexican Independence Day.

Last, but not least, when giving the student make up work, she again assigned a Mexican subject. A political Mexican subject.

From these facts, I inferred the teacher had a (IMO) totally inappropriate desire to further the bizarre-o notion so many illegal alien advocates have, that being a citizen of Mexico is kinda sorta like being a citizen of the US.

 
Ontologuy said:
Simply in general.

There is a tendency for liberals and conservatives to get sucked into their dualistic polemic conflict on a matter. When that happens in an issue where unfairness is alleged, the one feeling put upon complains a bit while the other just doesn't see the problem. Once that dualistic polemic conflict begins, the truth of the matter is seldom discovered, further alienation often being the result.

Coming to this realization for myself, having been at one time liberal and another time conservative, helped me to gently remove both fingers from the oriental finger puzzle, as I really was more interested in getting at the truth of these matters than defending a political spectrum perspective.

I don't think problems can really be solved until the truth of a matter is faced, as hard as that sometimes is to do.
Click to expand...

I'm neither a "liberal" nor a "conservative" across the board. I'd guess the liberal POV is that all illegal aliens should be granted amnesty; my own POV is if you didn't enter this country legally, GTFO. We have our own problems.

I do not approve of racist behavior, but I perceive no racism in arresting criminals for crimes they have in fact committed, such as violating our immigration laws.
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
Learning about Mexican culture and history is entirely appropriate in a Spanish language class because it offers context and because Mexicans are going to be the majority of Spanish speakers that an American student will encounter. A little bit of culture ain't gonna kill them.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I totally agree. The student obviously took exception, and she seems pretty astute.

She also lives there, and is thus likely more sensitive to the regionally associated hot-button issues there like illegal immigration and both liberal and conservative incitings.

A similar Bosnia, Serbia, etc. situation in Eastern Europe a decade or so ago, well, "ain't gonna kill them" is a bit insensitive, being an outsider's view of someone else's insides.

Viktyr Korimir said:
Pledging allegiance to a foreign nation inside our schools that have been paid for with our money, however, is completely inappropriate and the teacher should be reprimanded.
Click to expand...
Interesting perspective, one worth considering.

Is it the "recitation", the "foreign pledge" or the inappropriate use of your "money" that bothers you most?


Viktyr Korimir said:
However, the article also notes that the teacher offered an alternative assignment-- a report on the Mexican revolution-- that was entirely appropriate and which the student likewise refused to participate in. Her poor grade is a proper reflection of her refusal to participate in class, and should stand.
Click to expand...
A report on the Mexican revolution obviously is far more work than merely reciting the Mexican pledge of allegiance. Better and more equal would have been to simply recite something other than the pledge but that is also topically appropriate.

It thus appears that the teacher was responding punitively. Maybe the teacher didn't like being implicitly called on the teacher's own bias on the regional hot-button issue. Maybe the teacher was angry for being innocent and falsely accused. Maybe the teacher was embarrassed for not being more sensitive to the "reciting", "foreign pledge", and "money", and was irritated that a mere student would dare to call the teacher on the matter.

Regardless, it is apparent that, by virtue of the substitute assignment being more difficult, that the teacher did not take the matter as well as the teacher might have.

The student appears to have valid grounds for refusing to do the substitue assignment.

I would enjoy getting more facts in the matter before passing too much judgment, though.
 
The student is refusing her make up assignment? I do believe the ACLU will be making an appearance soon, then. (What were her motives in videoing the teacher in the first place, if not to raise sand about this?)

What better place to raise sand than in court?
 
Pinkie said:
I'm neither a "liberal" nor a "conservative" across the board. I'd guess the liberal POV is that all illegal aliens should be granted amnesty; my own POV is if you didn't enter this country legally, GTFO. We have our own problems.

I do not approve of racist behavior, but I perceive no racism in arresting criminals for crimes they have in fact committed, such as violating our immigration laws.
Click to expand...
I am right there with you on most of this.

It's just that conservatives, panderers to business owners, are hesistant to crack down on the matter, not so much for their aversion to government spending they allege, but because their business owners like the cheap labor.

Illegal immigrants here often violate three laws: 1) trespassing, 2) identity forgery, and 3) unauthorized employment. That's more than sufficient to justify punitive measures.

Had they come here openly seeking political asylum or economic refugee status, that would be different, and they would have reported to our appropriate government agency from the get-go.

Those who scream "racism" when illegals are confronted with their crimes are merely race-baiting in the hope of acheiving an amnesty goal, in my opinion, and they would do well to accept that all races from all over the globe cross illegally into our country from both land and sea on all sides, thus making race irrelevant.

But, back to the topic at hand ..

.. I would like to see more information on the matter before passing judgment.
 
Last edited:
Arcana XV said:
I honestly don't see what the illegal status of others have to do with her. She's a legal resident. Unless what she did in that class is actually illegal I don't see what the problem is. Is it illegal to recite other country's pledges or sing other country's anthems in your country?
Click to expand...

It's not illegal, no. But it is improper. One of the duties with which our schools are charged is to instill patriotism in the students; this teacher is an employee of our schools-- an employee of our government-- and is encouraging patriotic sentiment to a foreign power. It is like staying at someone's house, and telling their children that your parents would love them more. And given the political and cultural climate of the region, especially regarding immigration, it's like telling them that while they're in the middle of a heated custody dispute.
 
Ontologuy said:
The student, and her parents, can take the matter to school administrators if satisfaction is not achieved in the classroom .. and to the press if necessary.

Since this was a Spanish class, and indeed a number of countries speak Spanish as their principal language, the Spanish pledge of allegiance would have been academically appropriate.

Considering the region of the U.S. where this occurred, there is understandably political tension regarding illegal immigration and Mexican threats to annex parts of the U.S. for Mexico once sufficient infiltration occurs.

The teacher was at the very least insensitive to a political hot button that affects Americans and their jobs in the region.

I would be interested in knowing more about the teacher.
Click to expand...

I disagree that the recitation of any pledge of allegiance to any country would be appropriate as a class assignment, in any language.

As was pointed out earlier, a pledge is taken very seriously by many people in this country. Many people teach their children that you do not make a pledge that you are not willing to commit to. A class assignment to do so directly goes against those values. It is not an appropriate assignment.

My brother told me of a similar, yet more agreeable incident from his Spanish class. The teacher offered extra credit for the students to recite one of the following in Spanish, the Mexican pledge of allegiance, the US pledge of allegiance, or the world pledge of allegiance. That way it was all for extra credit and had nothing to do with the student's actual grade in the class.

For all those wondering, here is the world pledge

WSU | CLAS | Center for Peace & Conflict Studies | World Pledge Project

I didn't know what it was either til I checked.

Another good, very unlikely to be controversial pledge might be the "Earth Pledge".

I Pledge Allegiance to...One World?
 
Pinkie said:
The student is refusing her make up assignment? I do believe the ACLU will be making an appearance soon, then. (What were her motives in videoing the teacher in the first place, if not to raise sand about this?)

What better place to raise sand than in court?
Click to expand...

I read somewhere else that she did the assignment, but still got a poor grade on it that she contributes to her refusal to recite the pledge.
 
Arcana XV said:
I agree with most of that. But I still don't understand how reciting the words to some foreign pledge that means nothing to anyone other than the citizens of the nation in question is in any way inappropriate. Words only have value if you actually mean them.
Click to expand...

Except if this were true, then it wouldn't matter if we had the words "under God" in our own pledge and forced children to recite it, yet it does.

Now, I personally don't believe anyone should ever be forced to recite any pledge they don't want to, whether it is being enforced with a bad grade or singling out the child for not reciting the pledge.
 
Okay, well I still don't get it. No one could ever instill any kind of patriotism in me unless I actually belonged to that country, but if you all want to believe that your youth is that pathetically weak, go right ahead. I now leave this thread as baffled as I came into it. :2wave:
 
roguenuke said:
I disagree that the recitation of any pledge of allegiance to any country would be appropriate as a class assignment, in any language.

As was pointed out earlier, a pledge is taken very seriously by many people in this country. Many people teach their children that you do not make a pledge that you are not willing to commit to. A class assignment to do so directly goes against those values. It is not an appropriate assignment.

My brother told me of a similar, yet more agreeable incident from his Spanish class. The teacher offered extra credit for the students to recite one of the following in Spanish, the Mexican pledge of allegiance, the US pledge of allegiance, or the world pledge of allegiance. That way it was all for extra credit and had nothing to do with the student's actual grade in the class.

For all those wondering, here is the world pledge

WSU | CLAS | Center for Peace & Conflict Studies | World Pledge Project

I didn't know what it was either til I checked.

Another good, very unlikely to be controversial pledge might be the "Earth Pledge".

I Pledge Allegiance to...One World?
Click to expand...
Yes, as another pointed out, recitation of a foreign pledge is likely to be viewed as inappropriate at this level in this class.

The teacher could have had the students recite (since recitation seems to be the form of the assignment) something else topically appropriate.

I do wonder why the teacher didn't see the potential inappropriateness of the pledge recitation, assuming of course that the teacher indeed didn't see the inappropriateness of it.

The student's refusal to recite the Mexican pledge likely upset the teacher, considering that the make-up assignment was of a different and more effort-requiring form, implying punitive.
 
I don't imagine that other students in other countries would be required to learn out pledge, anthem (etc) when just learning our language. :shrug: In part because our language just isn't spoken in the US - but around the world as well.
 
Ontologuy said:
I'm not sure I totally agree. The student obviously took exception, and she seems pretty astute.
Click to expand...

Yeah, she's sharp. Don't make her right. There is an unfortunate undercurrent within our society that says that learning about foreign cultures is somehow disloyal, and that maintaining a state of cultural ignorance-- as a means of remaining culturally pure-- is praiseworthy. As a nation, we need to step away from this mindset. We need to learn more about our neighbors, about our friends and our enemies, not less.

Ontologuy said:
Is it the "recitation", the "foreign pledge" or the inappropriate use of your "money" that bothers you most?
Click to expand...

It is the foreign pledge, definitely. The reason that money enters into it is that the teacher is taking our money, and thus has some obligation to further our interests in the classroom, rather than directly opposing them. It is a form of treachery, however minor it is; she may owe her loyalty to Mexico, rather than to us, but she does owe us enough not to promote Mexico's interests within her role as schoolteacher.

Ontologuy said:
A report on the Mexican revolution obviously is far more work than merely reciting the Mexican pledge of allegiance. Better and more equal would have been to simply recite something other than the pledge but that is also topically appropriate.
Click to expand...

Replacement assignments are always more work than the main assignment. It's an important lesson that students need to learn: standing for your principles always has a price.

Ontologuy said:
I would enjoy getting more facts in the matter before passing too much judgment, though.
Click to expand...

I would always prefer to have more facts. My judgments are always based on the facts I have, and I admit that they are merely the best I can do within those limits.
 
Arcana XV said:
I agree with most of that. But I still don't understand how reciting the words to some foreign pledge that means nothing to anyone other than the citizens of the nation in question is in any way inappropriate. Words only have value if you actually mean them.
Click to expand...

Then it obviously had meaning to that student which is why she refused to recite the Mexican Pledge of Allegiance.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Did you have a different name because this is the first time I think that i have noticed you...
Click to expand...

People 'round these here parts use-ta call me Mellie. :)
 
Pinkie said:
I learned Latin. I was never invited to any pagan sex orgies, though.

:(
Click to expand...

Why the hell don't Latin Americans speak latin anyway?!?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom