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Thread: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    And blaming "corporate greed" nails it ?
    No. "Corporate greed" is pretty nebulous too. There certainly were some greedy banks and insurance companies that were responsible for a lot of problems, but that alone doesn't explain the financial crisis. I suspect that the finance industry is no more or less greedy than it has always been.

    Blaming government is not at all nebulous. It is as simple as Reagan said "Government is the problem". Government initiated the housing bubble.
    I don't disagree that the government shares the blame for the housing bubble, but the housing bubble was merely a symptom of the largest financial crisis, rather than the cause as is often depicted in the media. For example, I would say that the federal government helped cause the crisis by repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, by allowing wealth disparity to grow over the last 30 years, by indirectly subsidizing mortgages through the tax code, and by not raising interest rates during the middle part of the last decade.
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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The economy which is still the lagging detriment of 2008 was caused by a combination of Wall Street and Congress. Anyone who can't see that is as blind as a bat.

    As for your rhetoric, I can only take away one thing from it.

    "Well the OWS can protest, but I'll only approve of it if it's against Obama."
    So, why are the protetors demanding more government?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    Based on reading statement by members, most OWL/99% members don't see the government or business as exclusively responsible. see the unholy alliance of government protection and corporate & financial institutions' greed as the cause. They believe the government's pro-business tax cuts coupled with the anti-regulation & oversight policies and the use of this extra money and freedom from oversight by entities like Big Oil, Big Pharm, Big Healthcare, banks and Wall Street to make unfathomable profits without delivering the promised benefits have caused this crisis.
    Why are pro-business tax cuts a bad, when you consider that most corporations in America are small businesses?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Wall Street did what Wall Street does: doggedly pursue short-term profits with no thought to long-term consequences. BLAMING Wall Street for creating this disaster is like blaming a dog for chewing the furniture. It's what dogs do if you don't impose discipline on them.

    So yes, it is government's fault. It's government's fault for letting Wall Street off its leash.
    The government didn't just let them off their leash, they gave them the furniture to chew on and threatend them with punishment, if they didn't start chewing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Seriously, the chicken or the egg. Is that where the far-righties really want to go?


    So, the teabaggies want Big Gov off the backs of the people, but they DEMAND that Obama fix the W. cluster-f economy and provide jobs for everyone. Are they completely daft.

    Try this one on -- Big Gov DID NOT properly REGULATE WALL STREET. So, like the parents who let their children run amok... they are at fault when the table gets knocked over.

    For the love of Christ, will you far-righties PLEASE google MORAL HAZARD.

    I said Please.
    Actually, we're saying, "get the **** outta the way", and allow the private sector to create jobs. The private sector created this country, not the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. "Corporate greed" is pretty nebulous too. There certainly were some greedy banks and insurance companies that were responsible for a lot of problems, but that alone doesn't explain the financial crisis. I suspect that the finance industry is no more or less greedy than it has always been.

    I don't disagree that the government shares the blame for the housing bubble, but the housing bubble was merely a symptom of the largest financial crisis, rather than the cause as is often depicted in the media. For example, I would say that the federal government helped cause the crisis by repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, by allowing wealth disparity to grow over the last 30 years, by indirectly subsidizing mortgages through the tax code, and by not raising interest rates during the middle part of the last decade.
    Without a doubt, the housing bubble enabled and then caused this recession. Glass-Steagle had virtually nothing to do with creating the bubble, and is used by too many liberal politicians to deflect from the government's culpability, and rather try to blame Wall Street.

    There's a thread in the "Polls" forum I think, recent, talking about causes for the meltdown. This is not about whether or not government has a regulatory role. This is about government interfering with the markets, which creates the moral hazards that then create the house-of-cards, and then the fall.

    Look at Solyndra. Was not guaranteeing them a $530 million loan just one more moral hazard ? Did Solyndra not then go and continue with a terrible business model, as product piled up in their warehouses ? Stimulus is a moral hazard. JOBS is a moral hazard. All subsidize bad financial decisions.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Without a doubt, the housing bubble enabled and then caused this recession.
    The housing bubble was a symptom of a larger problem: People (and companies, and a handful of governments) were taking on too much debt that they couldn't afford. This situation often leads to real estate bubbles, because real estate is the one physical asset that can't be moved and has a fixed supply...and is therefore a logical place for people to dump their excess cash. To be sure, the government played a role in the housing bubble. Under Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve was far too lax for the middle of the last decade. It should have been pursuing more contractionary policies at that time. Furthermore, the government is STILL subsidizing irresponsibility via the mortgage interest deduction in the federal tax code...to the tune of $70 billion per year. So to these points, I don't disagree at all that the government bears some responsibility.

    Glass-Steagle had virtually nothing to do with creating the bubble, and is used by too many liberal politicians to deflect from the government's culpability, and rather try to blame Wall Street.
    The repeal of Glass-Steagall enabled commercial banks to behave like casinos. I don't have a problem with banks borrowing money from depositors and loaning it out to debtors at a higher interest rate (and I think most of us would agree that we need something like the FDIC to protect depositors). I also don't have a problem with investment banks gambling the funds of their own investors on foolish high-risk investments if they want to. What I have a problem with is allowing banks to do both. As you said, moral hazard is a problem. Well, this is the biggest moral hazard our financial system faces. By allowing banks to perform both of these functions, it essentially allows them to keep the profits from their gambles when they pay off, and foist the losses off on the taxpayers when they don't.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-19-11 at 08:55 PM.
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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Who cares who is "more responsible". They both are and both should face reforms. The gallup poll is a typical bait-switch done by the media to obfuscate the issue.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    The Tea Party and OWS need to come together where they agree and agree to put their differences aside until they are able to accomplish something where they agree.
    Absolutely, 100% true. But if DP is any indication, they're far more interested in demonizing each other. Which is exactly what Washington and Wall Street both want.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Gallup: Americans Blame Government More than Wall Street for Bad Economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The housing bubble was a symptom of a larger problem: People (and companies, and a handful of governments) were taking on too much debt that they couldn't afford. This situation often leads to real estate bubbles, because real estate is the one physical asset that can't be moved and has a fixed supply...and is therefore a logical place for people to dump their excess cash. To be sure, the government played a role in the housing bubble. Under Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve was far too lax for the middle of the last decade. It should have been pursuing more contractionary policies at that time. Furthermore, the government is STILL subsidizing irresponsibility via the mortgage interest deduction in the federal tax code...to the tune of $70 billion per year. So to these points, I don't disagree at all that the government bears some responsibility.
    You are half right, but very much half wrong. The bubble was not caused by folks taking on "too much debt". Our capitalist market had always been able to ebb and flow with normal housing market dynamics. The bubble was hyper-inflation. And you have to look at what got that started.

    New buyers enabled by Fannie and Freddie underwriting sub-primes at a rate that increased five-fold in the 90's.

    The repeal of Glass-Steagall enabled commercial banks to behave like casinos. I don't have a problem with banks borrowing money from depositors and loaning it out to debtors at a higher interest rate (and I think most of us would agree that we need something like the FDIC to protect depositors). I also don't have a problem with investment banks gambling the funds of their own investors on foolish high-risk investments if they want to. What I have a problem with is allowing banks to do both. As you said, moral hazard is a problem. Well, this is the biggest moral hazard our financial system faces. By allowing banks to perform both of these functions, it essentially allows them to keep the profits from their gambles when they pay off, and foist the losses off on the taxpayers when they don't.
    No. If it had all just been private banks etc, with their own money, we still would have had basic market forces keeping things relatively in check. The banks and other lenders made loans to sub-primes because Fannie and Freddie underwrote the risk. At the height of the bubble, Fannie and Freddie had half the market. That is government underwriting half of the entire risk market. Your last sentence sweems to say that banks performing two functions enabled them to keep profits and shed losses. They were able to do that , but it was because of Fannie and Feddie, and then such as TARP. You do not mention either.

    No doubt Greenspan could have jacked interest rates beginning in about 2000 to stifle this. But the bubble was created by government, not the repeal of Glass Steagle.

    I have debated this too many times. You are a bit misinformed. I am not going to waste more time on it. You can go to a thread more devoted to this, and learn there.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 10-19-11 at 09:10 PM.

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