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Thread: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    What isn't clear about stopping greed and social inequality today? And what wasn't clear about peace and love in the 60s and 70s?


    I would really like to know how much are some of you reading into these protests? I've read countless articles and watched numerous videos, both from the news and amateur videos, and it's pretty clear to me what they are protesting.
    I didn't ask what they are protesting; I asked what's their message. They have no clear message; they are protesting the world financial and economic culture, right? So what's the message other than they don't like what they don't like? How do they plan to influence change? That would be a clear message.
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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    What isn't clear about stopping greed and social inequality today? And what wasn't clear about peace and love in the 60s and 70s?


    I would really like to know how much are some of you reading into these protests? I've read countless articles and watched numerous videos, both from the news and amateur videos, and it's pretty clear to me what they are protesting.

    Thank you. Perfect parallel.


    The 60's anti-war hippie protesters (I was around and knew more than a few, though I was a kid), were not exactly diplomatic genius types who had a viable plan for world peace. From what I recall, they were composed about equally of stoners whose main motives were not wanting to go to Vietnam, preferring to stay stoned all day, avoid work as much as possible, and take advantage of the sexual revolution.... and hyper-idealistic college kids or college dropouts who were so full of slogans and chants and RAGE that they couldn't stop to consider an alternative viewpoint.

    So many of them thought if we just laid down all our arms and put daisies in our hair and sang "Let the sunshine in", the Soviet Union and etc would go "Aw, how sweet, let's be nice to them and go have a drum circle and score some weed." Um, No.... the truth of the world is that showing an unwillingness to fight is like wearing a roast pig on your back in a tiger cage.

    Like the hippies of the 60's, I tend to think the OWS protesters are a mix of naive ideologues and lazy opportunists, based on what I've seen. Many interviewees seem to have only a very vague idea of what they're protesting for, and even less idea of what they'd replace the current system with. Others have these incredibly unrealistic anarchist notions that in the absence of all gov't that people would just naturally be cooperative and communitarian and everything would be groovy, baby.


    The 60's anti-war, anti-caplitalism, anti-Establishment hippies didn't really change much in the world, overall. Society is still structured much the same, with work and jobs and corporations and rich people and politicians and wars. Many of the very people who were hippy protesters back then are now capitalists, corporatists, and politicians, and they're not ushering in any Age of Aquarius.


    The OWS is likely just another flash in the pan, but an even smaller and less significant one.

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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    I didn't ask what they are protesting; I asked what's their message. They have no clear message; they are protesting the world financial and economic culture, right? So what's the message other than they don't like what they don't like? How do they plan to influence change? That would be a clear message.

    Message begins at 2:25, but feel free to watch the entire thing...

    "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, it to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution." —John Adams

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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    Does anyone else see similarities between the protests today and those in the 1960s and 70s? The ways they are treated by police and some politicians is disgraceful.
    Of course, it comes with the territory in protesting the status quo.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    What isn't clear about stopping greed and social inequality today?
    It seems to be the protesters that are asking for something for nothing. That's rather greedy.

    And what the hell is "social inequality"?

    Have you taken a close look at these people? If so it should be clear they don't fit into the higher social circles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It seems to be the protesters that are asking for something for nothing. That's rather greedy.

    And what the hell is "social inequality"?

    Have you taken a close look at these people? If so it should be clear they don't fit into the higher social circles.
    Or, you could say that the 99% are standing up against the bloated bailouts, bonuses, and tax breaks the 1% gets for nothing (excepting political contributions, that is.)

    The fact that you can't define "social inequality" demonstrates an ignorance of the demographics of the country you live in. (And if I were to hazard a guess, probably indicates you are a white male.) Perhaps social inequality could refer to the growing inequality of income and wealth, or perhaps the educational and life prospects of a child born into urban poverty as compared to one born into suburban comfort. Maybe you could consider the racial disparities of incarceration rates, or the income gap between male and female, or the racial or income disparities in healthcare acess... take your pick: those are social inequalities.

    The ideal of the US as a meritocracy is a myth; social mobility is far more limited in the US than people realize. Most citizens, such as yourself, Grant, belive in myth more than reality, because it's so much more comfortable. It's similar to the passengers on the Titanic who never attempted to get in a lifeboat, because the advertizements clearly stated she was "unsinkable."
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Or, you could say that the 99% are standing up against the bloated bailouts, bonuses, and tax breaks the 1% gets for nothing (excepting political contributions, that is.)
    It seems like a very great assumption, and likely a false one, that they have the support or interest of 99% of the people.
    The fact that you can't define "social inequality" demonstrates an ignorance of the demographics of the country you live in. (And if I were to hazard a guess, probably indicates you are a white male.) Perhaps social inequality could refer to the growing inequality of income and wealth, or perhaps the educational and life prospects of a child born into urban poverty as compared to one born into suburban comfort. Maybe you could consider the racial disparities of incarceration rates, or the income gap between male and female, or the racial or income disparities in healthcare acess... take your pick: those are social inequalities.
    Right. Some people are in jail and others aren't. Perhaps there should be quota systems in the areas you mentioned, or restrictions on where people can live. How about changing the educational system to vouchers so children have a chance to learn rather than turning the entire country into another Detroit? The idea that some people are paid more because they are worth more doesn't seem to register.

    The ideal of the US as a meritocracy is a myth; social mobility is far more limited in the US than people realize. Most citizens, such as yourself, Grant, belive in myth more than reality, because it's so much more comfortable. It's similar to the passengers on the Titanic who never attempted to get in a lifeboat, because the advertizements clearly stated she was "unsinkable."
    I agree that that the United States is sinking, to continue with your analogy, but that's because almost 50% of the people don't pay any federal incomes taxes and the current administration can't even present a budget, must less balance one. Were the OWS and those with their shared philosophies working and paying taxes perhaps the US wouldn't be compared to the Titanic,

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    [QUOTE=Grant;1059878305]
    . How about changing the educational system to vouchers so children have a chance to learn rather than turning the entire country into another Detroit? The idea that some people are paid more because they are worth more doesn't seem to register.
    Fwiw, I'm with you on vouchers. But that point about people being paid more because they are worth more is where we diverge. Of course, it is true to some point, but I don't believe anyone is "worth" hundreds or thousands as times as much as anyone else.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Police, Protesters Clash at Occupy SD

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Fwiw, I'm with you on vouchers. But that point about people being paid more because they are worth more is where we diverge. Of course, it is true to some point, but I don't believe anyone is "worth" hundreds or thousands as times as much as anyone else.
    The idea that everyone is worth an equal amount of money per hour, week or month does suggest meritocracy is dead, and without rising on merit there is no compelling reason for ambition or improvement. These same people who feel everyone has the same work ethic and income value have never met a payroll or made any serious contribution to increase the national GDP and yet feel qualified as to what income Wall Street workers should be paid or what bonuses they should receive. It is a finely tuned combination of ignorance and arrogance coming from an unqualified and uneducated group of people who sense of hygiene is not even a priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The idea that everyone is worth an equal amount of money per hour, week or month does suggest meritocracy is dead, and without rising on merit there is no compelling reason for ambition or improvement. These same people who feel everyone has the same work ethic and income value have never met a payroll or made any serious contribution to increase the national GDP and yet feel qualified as to what income Wall Street workers should be paid or what bonuses they should receive. It is a finely tuned combination of ignorance and arrogance coming from an unqualified and uneducated group of people who sense of hygiene is not even a priority.
    I agree that not all work is equal in value, and people should receive pay based on that. Karl Marx is long dead. I only took issue with your statement about people being paid what they are worth. I think it's silly to think: 1. The market provides an infallable measure of worth (e.g. staying in the home to raise children is worthless) and 2. That Bill Gates' life is worth tens of thousands of middle class lives.

    That being said, I think everyone is "worth" a sustinance level of income, and no one's work is "worth" thousands of times anyone else's. Double? Triple? 100s of times? Yes, probably... but not the multiples we see between laborers, professionals, and the 1%ers. This is not a black or white choice between communism and unbridled free market capitalism. To frame it as such is disingenuous.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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