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Thread: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Considering that Obamacare was nothing, but a re-hashed Republican bill from the early 90's, it was doomed to fail.
    I know a blog said it one time and thus a bunch of other liberal sources picked up on it and repeat it over and over again but it doesn't make it true. It may help if you actually took time to...I don't know...be objective and research the claim a bit rather than just making such idiotic statements ignorant of reality. You GROSSLY misrepresent the bill, making it akin to saying that the War in Iraq was just a rehash of a Democratic proposal because Leiberman supported it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sure thing, where to begin.

    First, lets be open and honest. The BS about it being the "essentially" the same basically came from people parroting articles that referenced the Kaiser Health News comparison chart. So lets look at that chart.

    To begin with, the chart is essentially summarizes and bullet points. Notions like "reduce medicare spending" and "create more efficiency" are INCREDIBLY vauge with KHN giving ZERO extra information concerning the difference there. To simply suggest that both plans wanting to create more efficiency in health care equals having the same plan of reform is ridiculous. You could point to two different plans by Democrats and Republicans concerning say Welfare Reform, saying both want to reform it, and have entirely different things. So the notion right off of using a bullet point chart as "evidence" of the similarities is flawed in and of itself.

    But even looking at that list you still have differences. Such as the current law mandating that businesses help pay for premiums for some employees where as the 1993 plan not requiring it. The 1993 plan had malpractice reform, a big thing for republicans, this one didn't. 1993's didn't make 26 year olds children "dependents". 1993 took steps to equalize the taxes for those that are self employed. This plan bans lifetime spending caps, 1993's doesnt. And those are just some of the ones they vaguely note. That's not getting into the fact that they cover HUGE swatches of things with a simple "yes" that to TRULY get a feel for if its similar or not one would need to read both bills in full.

    Then lets go deeper. The current bill has a large medicare expansion that could potentially end up covering more people through its expansion, due to the amount of uninsured that would fall under the 133 percent poverty line, than through any other provision. This is a rather substantial thing in and of itself, and is something completely missing from the 1993 bill. The current Bill puts greater taxes on very expensive plans where as 1993 had a tax cap. Again, another large issue for Republicans.

    Then you have the misrepresentation by people through implication that somehow this shows that Republicans are moving to the right or becoming more extreme, acting as if this was a majorly touted and supported plan by Republicans. In reality, it was a plan that rapidly lost support. The CBO wasn't scoring things as quickly or continually as it does not, so it took longer for the cost of things to truly come out. However once you did even big named proponents of the bill, such as Bob Dole, quickly moved away from it due to the cost of attempting that much coverage being unfeasable. The attempts at "moderating" and "bipartisanship" put too much bloat into the bill for the cost to be reasonable and it killed support by republicans in the long run. Not to mention it was just one of a number of health care proposals supported by republicans, such as the Packwood Dole one, none of which truly gained exceeding, long lasting party support as more information and facts came out about it.

    Now, with all that in mind, there's the notion of history. Republicans pushing for health care plans when the entire government is filled with Democrats generally aren't going to work. If they push what they want, obviously it won't get passed. If they push a compromised or moderate bill, such as the 1993 bill, then it is still in their minds a negative for the country due to the expense of the matter and thus something that quickly lost support. So if you're not going to be able to pass what you want, and you aren't happy and can't fully support a compromised bill which in the end will cause it not to pass as well, in the future which are you going to do? Again compromise on your principles for something that's unlikely to pass if you do it and put your vote behind something you think is going to be broken, or realize that either way you're ideas aren't going to really get done or that what you think will hurt the country will happen so you may as well put forth a proposal you actually feel is GOOD and fits your principles.

    Could you show me how they are "essentially" the same Bill besides taking VERY broad categories and statements and simply saying both touched on those things in some way shape or form and thus are similar?
    Also note that it was one bill of many. You had Cooper-Grady, you had Rowland-Bilirackis, you had Packwood-Dole, and then you had the Chafee plan. The Chafee plan got the most support initially, but that support quickly fizzled the more people looked into it. Mind you it was the Chafee plan, the guy who went from Republican to Independent. Attempting to present it as you do as some kind of defacto Republican stance in the 90's because one bill happened to go that route is akin to trying to suggest that Democrats endorsed and are fully in favor of the War on Terror and the Iraq War because Joe Lieberman was behind it.

    The 90's bill had some similarities to Obamacare. However, it also had a number of differences, had rapidly dwindling support, was one of multiple bills, was done at a time where the political atmosphere on both sides and the context of the situation regarding balance of power was a bit different.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    No, Obamacare declares war on private, for profit practices.
    Again, simply not true. Sorry.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    The notion of cost containment is a myth unless private, for profit practice is destroyed.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    No, Obamacare declares war on private, for profit practices.
    how so please? thanks.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    The notion of cost containment is a myth unless private, for profit practice is destroyed.
    Not true. But you seem to be arguing we should destroy private, for profit practice. I disagree.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Health care reform was debated for like a year. I read the entire bill in one day.
    1990 pages in a single day. I'm sure you fully grasped and understood the bill and didn't just skim it going through that much in a day. You've declared you read it in a day so therefore we must expect that you're an export on it.

    They didn't offer solutions, they offered NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
    It would help if you didn't state utter and unquestionably provable false hoods.

    Republican Bill

    Your statement was nothing but utter fantasy, and either you knowingly and outright lied without a care in the world simply to push your political agenda and score points like the hyper partisan you are or you were really, really ignorant of what was going on during that time.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not true. But you seem to be arguing we should destroy private, for profit practice. I disagree.
    Obamacare does this, by design. You'll have to be content with the same crap health care everyone else gets.

    Top tier care is already being taxed and regulated out of existence.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Obamacare does this, by design. You'll have to be content with the same crap health care everyone else gets.

    Top tier care is already being taxed and regulated out of existence.
    I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Please present any support you actually have. Repeating misinformation is not effective.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Government interference in the health care market is already making it impossible to Americans to buy plans they could previously buy, high end coverage and individual plans, to wit.

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    Re: Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Government interference in the health care market is already making it impossible to Americans to buy plans they could previously buy, high end coverage and individual plans, to wit.
    So, you don't have anything to support your claims? Shocking.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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