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Thread: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by mtlhdtodd View Post
    It is very simple to understand. The flea baggers can shout, scream, say, print what ever they want and no one will stop them. They just have to leave the park. The right of free speech does not convey the right to make someone listen to it.
    Apparently they don't as they are no longer looking to force them off the property.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I do not see how those minor criminal acts excuse on the whole the oppression and suppression of assembly and protest.
    If they keep the park from being properly maintained then it suffers damage, that diminishes the park for everyone else. So yes, it does in fact excuse the "oppression" and "suppression" of these jackasses little tirade. Frankly if you want to call something oppressive, how about a mob taunting people in their own homes as a result of these protests, you okay with that?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I also find that logic to be very dangerous. The law in and of itself is not good enough excuse to infringe upon the rights of others. It should always be brought back to the rights of the individual, not appeal to authority.
    Fine, when the judge tells you it's okay that you logically don't have to lose your property because the law wasn't something you agree with then we'll talk, the fact is whether you agree with it or not you are responsible to follow it.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    If they keep the park from being properly maintained then it suffers damage, that diminishes the park for everyone else. So yes, it does in fact excuse the "oppression" and "suppression" of these jackasses little tirade. Frankly if you want to call something oppressive, how about a mob taunting people in their own homes as a result of these protests, you okay with that?
    Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

    The property damage to the public land can be fixed. I'd rather pay to clean up afterwards than to disassemble assembly and protest rights. Those are far too important to waste on petty arguments like littering.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

    The property damage to the public land can be fixed. I'd rather pay to clean up afterwards than to disassemble assembly and protest rights. Those are far too important to waste on petty arguments like littering.
    Understand I am not calling you anything, rather some of the people at these protests who have no clue of what they speak. Most of these people are grossly uninformed thus I call them jackasses. I understand your principles on this but these protesters are actually in favor of more government intervention, what they don't understand is they are using their liberties to take liberties so I have no sympathy for them. The other point is you don't have to pay for their damages, the private company does, and I'm pretty sure they won't appreciate the bill in the name of these protesters "rights".
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Understand I am not calling you anything, rather some of the people at these protests who have no clue of what they speak. Most of these people are grossly uninformed thus I call them jackasses. I understand your principles on this but these protesters are actually in favor of more government intervention, what they don't understand is they are using their liberties to take liberties so I have no sympathy for them. The other point is you don't have to pay for their damages, the private company does, and I'm pretty sure they won't appreciate the bill in the name of these protesters "rights".
    They can be in favor of whatever. Assembly and protest are some of our most important rights, and I'll argue for anyone to be able to use them; particularly on public land, even if I don't agree with their message. It's essential. We cannot allow it to be infringed upon.

    They may not appreciate the bill, but they yielded the land through contract, as they have the right to do. And once yielded, it was then public space. And public space may be used for assembly and protest. I would say freely. This is a consequence of freedom and I will gladly accept it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    How is Wall Street not responsible for their own actions?
    Let's assume they are. What does that have to do with Occupy? Are the people with home foreclosuers that are getting assitance in the wrong because they too should be responsible for (only) their actions?

    Also notice that if 4 people including yourself did something "bad", if the public clamoured to only punish one of them, would you not think that is an injustice? Use common sense here.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by conservativeguy View Post
    What part of "private property" needs to be explained?
    Under NYC law, it is not technically the same thing as Private Property.

    As part of the 1962 building code, developers who wanted to build above a certain height were required to to create public spaces such as plazas, atria, and passageways - that are required to be open to the public 24/7.

    Yes, technically, the property is owned by Brookfield, but under NYC building code law, Zuccoti Park is a "public space", and even though it is on "private property", it operates under the same laws as "public spaces".

    There are 503 such spaces in New York City.

    Granted, NYC park law forbids "camping", thus, the protesters could be evicted for that reason - however, if they attempt to use "private property" law, they will likely open a legal can of worms that they won't want to open.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The Clinton justice department interpreted provisions of the CRA and selectively applied it to threats of force.
    Nonsense; you cannot force a bank to lend.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They can be in favor of whatever. Assembly and protest are some of our most important rights, and I'll argue for anyone to be able to use them; particularly on public land, even if I don't agree with their message. It's essential. We cannot allow it to be infringed upon.
    Free speech has already been addressed in the 1900's by many legal scholars and it's limits are set. Once you are asked to leave an area by an authority you no longer have free speech in that area, the people trying to maintain the park are the authority and the protesters were asked to leave. Now, I am all for speech I don't agree with, I will just issue my own speech when the counter is warranted, these people overstayed their welcome and that is the real issue, they are a nuisance and thus they must move their free speech to a new venue, it's not that they can't spout off their idiocy elsewhere, they just can't do it at that location. These people are whining about an inconvenience at best.

    They may not appreciate the bill, but they yielded the land through contract, as they have the right to do. And once yielded, it was then public space. And public space may be used for assembly and protest. I would say freely. This is a consequence of freedom and I will gladly accept it.
    Then we'll just have to disagree as I see free speech as things that don't inflict direct harm, the owners are being harmed thus they have a right to end the harm.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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