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Thread: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

  1. #61
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Rights override nuisance. If we're going to say that in public spaces people can freely assemble and protest, as we should be saying. Then that's that. This park isn't "private property" in the conventional sense. It was contractually lent to the government as public space in order for them to be able to build somewhere else. When they struck that contract, the land then became public use.

    I'm not liking the use of "nuisance" and other petty arguments to trump the rights of the individual.
    Unless it is a nuisance to the rights of others to use the space.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Who cares if it's private property
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Rights override nuisance. If we're going to say that in public spaces people can freely assemble and protest, as we should be saying. Then that's that. This park isn't "private property" in the conventional sense. It was contractually lent to the government as public space in order for them to be able to build somewhere else. When they struck that contract, the land then became public use.

    I'm not liking the use of "nuisance" and other petty arguments to trump the rights of the individual.
    Rights do not override nuisance, you may not abuse your own rights to the point that you violate the rights of others, that has been held at the local, state, and federal level. For instance if I were to tell you to be silent you are under no compulsion to comply thus I have not violated your rights but rather have been a litte curt. If I pull a gun on you and insist on the same result then you probably will feel compelled to comply and at that point I have in fact overridden my right to bear arms and violated your right to free speech. Here's the point in that, if they have created a nuisance then they have overextended on their right to assembly and if they have overextended their welcome at the park then they likewise no longer have the right to free speech in that area.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    So I see that you respect reasonable limitations on free speech.

    I will expect your support in future for efforts to place reasonable limits on campaign contribution "speech".
    It is not a limit on free speech and you know it. It is a limit on access to a parcel of PRIVATE property and that is it. If the flea baggers do not understand this maybe they are the ones with the problem.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    the corporate owners of the park have EVERY right to limit the speech & habitation in the park.

    its their park. its called property rights.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    That's what ordinances say. For example if I start rebuilding a project car and let the process fall behind in my own city my car can be towed because the nuisance is said to endanger my neighbor's property value, if these people are devaluing the neighborhood by presenting a nuisance presence on property they DON'T own you bet their nuisance trumps free speech as they are violating the rights of those around them. Rights are not absolute, they end at the point that they interfere with the rights of others.
    So you would agree with reasonable limits being placed on campaign contributions as they have a negative impact on our politics.

    Because rights are not absolute.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I never said that Wall Street doesn't share a little bit of the blame, However, because they didn't act on their own free will and were being forced by the government to make these bad loans, under the threat of prosecution by the DOJ, they can't be held totally responsible and the politicians that forced them to make the loans are the ones that need to be prosecuted, first. After that, we can look at the banks and see exactly what role they played in the scam.
    Maybe you could share some resources to help me better understand how the government forced the banks to make these bad loans and subsequently bet against them? As I understand it, deregulation of the financial industry is what led these institutions to consolidate into a few monoliths who made risky decisions by investing in sub-prime loans. Every attempt to regulate the derivatives market was shot down, so I'll agree that the government had it's hand in allowing these institutions to make such risky investments, but I don't see how they were forced into doing so. It seems to me that the problem was too little regulation in the market, not an authoritarian government forcing banks to make bad decisions.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    So you would agree with reasonable limits being placed on campaign contributions as they have a negative impact on our politics.

    Because rights are not absolute.
    You are comparing apples to Cadillacs. That point has no bearing on the conversation whatsoever, please address the point.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Maybe you could share some resources to help me better understand how the government forced the banks to make these bad loans and subsequently bet against them? As I understand it, deregulation of the financial industry is what led these institutions to consolidate into a few monoliths who made risky decisions by investing in sub-prime loans. Every attempt to regulate the derivatives market was shot down, so I'll agree that the government had it's hand in allowing these institutions to make such risky investments, but I don't see how they were forced into doing so. It seems to me that the problem was too little regulation in the market, not an authoritarian government forcing banks to make bad decisions.
    The Clinton Justice department and the Community Reinvestment act enforced by Janet Reno backed by Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae, had much to do with Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and the CBC.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The Clinton Justice department and the Community Reinvestment act enforced by Janet Reno backed by Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae, had much to do with Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and the CBC.
    Come on; the CRA did not force banks to lend to anyone.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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