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Thread: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

  1. #51
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    A mall is commercial and is subject to different rules than a park space.
    Nope, the mall is a marketplace and holds lease properties. It may not pre-emptively bar entrance and must have a reason, the same as a park or public(semi-public) property. The fact is that people can be asked to leave private property for any reason and public property once they become a nuisance or engage in criminal activities. These people are basically engaging in squatting which is a nuisance activity.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's "private property" which through contract became public (if I've understood what people have said about the park thus far). I think in this case, you have to treat it as any other public space.
    I think that's the legal classification.

    The owners are responsible for upkeep, evidently.

    So its definitely some kind of public/private hybrid.

    And I think the public part makes it public as pertains to "assembly".
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    How is Wall Street not responsible for their own actions?
    I never said that Wall Street doesn't share a little bit of the blame, However, because they didn't act on their own free will and were being forced by the government to make these bad loans, under the threat of prosecution by the DOJ, they can't be held totally responsible and the politicians that forced them to make the loans are the ones that need to be prosecuted, first. After that, we can look at the banks and see exactly what role they played in the scam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Where did you get that from? But yes I do support restrictions on speech such as treason, incitement to riot, and other dangerous speech. I don't see why you brought that argument here though since I said people can be asked to leave for abusive behavior and not speech. If the crew cannot clean the park up then obviously the crowd is engaging in abusive behavior.
    The protesters delivered a fait accompli though.

    The cleanup was an attempt to end the occupation. They did the same thing at a number of other occupations, including here in San Diego. Haven't seen how our local effort played out yet.

    As long as the protesters actually are maintaining the spaces they are occupying, there's no reason to make them leave and not be able to return. Which from the material provided by the owners was their stated intent.

    The level of "filth" reported varied in direct relation to the ideological bent of the reporter. So its really not possible to know for sure if it was legitimately "filthy" or just disorganized and messy.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So you DO NOT have any evidence to support the boast you made



    Your statement was not only one of your own extremist beliefs, it is unsupported by fact and is misleading in the extreme.

    You should either support it with verifiable evidence or withdraw it and apologize for slurring people.
    It's a well knwn fact. Anyone that ignores that is in denial of reality, because of their own extremist views and loyal to their government masters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's "private property" which through contract became public (if I've understood what people have said about the park thus far). I think in this case, you have to treat it as any other public space.
    Between the number of individuals taking up space and the filth they have created, they are preventing the public from using the space, which makes them a nuisance, giving the property owner planty of authority to remove them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Nope, the mall is a marketplace and holds lease properties. It may not pre-emptively bar entrance and must have a reason, the same as a park or public(semi-public) property. The fact is that people can be asked to leave private property for any reason and public property once they become a nuisance or engage in criminal activities. These people are basically engaging in squatting which is a nuisance activity.
    So you agree that being a nuisance trumps free speech. And that the laws they are breaking are laws that place reasonable limits on free speech.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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  8. #58
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Between the number of individuals taking up space and the filth they have created, they are preventing the public from using the space, which makes them a nuisance, giving the property owner planty of authority to remove them.
    Rights override nuisance. If we're going to say that in public spaces people can freely assemble and protest, as we should be saying. Then that's that. This park isn't "private property" in the conventional sense. It was contractually lent to the government as public space in order for them to be able to build somewhere else. When they struck that contract, the land then became public use.

    I'm not liking the use of "nuisance" and other petty arguments to trump the rights of the individual.
    Last edited by Ikari; 10-14-11 at 01:53 PM.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    The protesters delivered a fait accompli though.

    The cleanup was an attempt to end the occupation. They did the same thing at a number of other occupations, including here in San Diego. Haven't seen how our local effort played out yet.

    As long as the protesters actually are maintaining the spaces they are occupying, there's no reason to make them leave and not be able to return. Which from the material provided by the owners was their stated intent.

    The level of "filth" reported varied in direct relation to the ideological bent of the reporter. So its really not possible to know for sure if it was legitimately "filthy" or just disorganized and messy.
    The number of sources on both ideological sides seems to say in larger numbers that the protesters are not keeping up the area, which is at the heart of this, if the park cannot be cleaned up the facilities will degrade quickly.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    So you agree that being a nuisance trumps free speech. And that the laws they are breaking are laws that place reasonable limits on free speech.
    That's what ordinances say. For example if I start rebuilding a project car and let the process fall behind in my own city my car can be towed because the nuisance is said to endanger my neighbor's property value, if these people are devaluing the neighborhood by presenting a nuisance presence on property they DON'T own you bet their nuisance trumps free speech as they are violating the rights of those around them. Rights are not absolute, they end at the point that they interfere with the rights of others.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 10-14-11 at 02:08 PM.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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