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Thread: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

  1. #131
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The protesters cleaned up. It's a good way to go about it as well, make sure that they limit the damage that is done. But it's foolish to believe that a protest of this scale will not cause some amount of cosmetic damage. I do not think that the damage by itself excuses force against our innate and inalienable rights; particularly where protest and dissent are concerned. These are HUGE rights, rights which must be upheld to their maximum. If we lose the ability to dissent and protest, we will lose whatever little control we have left. There are too many little, petty, superficial laws which are trying to be used to infringe upon protest. And I, for one, see that as exceedingly dangerous. Not even terrorists can affect our rights to this degree.
    Again they didn't loose that right they just would've had to move it off the PRIVATE property which the owner has the right to exercise.
    Plus the owner was willing to work around the flea baggers they just could not set up camp like before.
    Last edited by mtlhdtodd; 10-14-11 at 04:04 PM.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    The hypocrisy on the right is glaring. The right is constantly making appeals to private property rights since people are protesting detrimental, myopic greed, but many of these same people threw private property rights out the window regarding the mosque being built near 9/11.

    Remember when the right ardently defended private property rights to build a mosque? I sure don't.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Are you saying that all subprime originated under CRA jurisdiction?
    No, I am saying that the CRA was a generally broad act that was interpreted in such a way as to force the initial bad loans, this led to the derivatives that would eventually cause the bubble, I am not excusing the mortgage lenders but am agreeing with those who say the government is complicit.

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    no they didn't. cra never forced a bank to make a bad loan. have you seen the regulations of are you just repeating what you've heard?
    Yes they certainly did, they were threatened with investigations and loss of accreditation, they didn't have to make the loans but that would have led to losses on their part.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by mtlhdtodd View Post
    Again they didn't loose that right they just would've had to move it off the PRIVATE property which the owner has the right to exercise.
    Plus the owner was willing to work around the flea baggers they just could not set up camp like before.
    The "private" property is not so private. They ceded that to the government through contract in order to obtain permission to expand on another property. It became public at that time. I think it's best to treat it as one would treat any public area as such. They are losing the right in that more and more where ever they go someone shouts "NO! you can't be here because of X". And you gather enough X's and soon you have no ability to protest.

    The importance of protest and dissent are too great to overlook for superficial and petty laws such as littering. It must necessarily be upheld to their maximum. It is essential to the overall ability to keep the Republic. Something so important should not be trimmed because of "nuisance". In fact, I would say it must be tolerated under those concerns. This is a consequence of freedom, one that needs to be shouldered and accepted. Free has never been easy, nor particularly safe, but it's better than the alternative. I'd rather we have the protections and abilities to confront government than to see them whittled away under such false pretense as nuisance.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #135
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by mtlhdtodd View Post
    Again they didn't loose that right they just would've had to move it off the PRIVATE property which the owner has the right to exercise.
    Plus the owner was willing to work around the flea baggers they just could not set up camp like before.
    Maybe you skipped over the part about Zuccotti Park being under "public space" law due to 1962 Building Code law?

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    The hypocrisy on the right is glaring. The right is constantly making appeals to private property rights since people are protesting detrimental, myopic greed, but many of these same people threw private property rights out the window regarding the mosque being built near 9/11.

    Remember when the right ardently defended private property rights to build a mosque? I sure don't.
    The right never said they didn't have the right to build it, just that it was a very insensitive thing to do and voiced their displeasure at it. Any attempts at restriction are just as wrong. Again they have the right to build it, but that doesn't mean they can force people to help build it.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not really. Their major concern, which is a real concern, is the entanglement of government and corporate interest. In essence, they're fighting against the corporate capitalist model we now find ourselves under. In that regard, I do agree (though I would probably not agree with their terms to correct it). I also think that people are all too willing to dismiss their point and try to pass it off as whining or something. But rather I see it as people paying attention and having the desire to keep the Republic which we are losing. And corporate capitalism is just one of the symptoms of losing the Republic.

    While there are limits to set, particularly when free speech can infringe on such innate and inalienable rights as life; I do not think the limits are unlimited. Given the importance of assembly and protest, I would move to promote and protect those as one of the most important of our innate and inalienable rights. Dissent against the government M



    As I understand it, the ceded that part in contract with the government. Opting to turn the land into public land, and thus it is proper to use for assembly and protest. Furthermore, the protesters had even cleaned up, which I think is one thing which spurred the reversal. In the end, I think using petty laws like this in a way to infringe upon dissent, assembly, and protest is well more dangerous than having to clean up a park after protest.
    I am on your side when it comes to free speech, as I understand it the protesters are in the wrong, I haven't necessarily seen enough of a counter here to change my mind on that. I do agree in ending a corporate/government alliance because the two sectors should never have a monetary relationship, but the only way to do that is to shrink the regulatory scope of the government to a point where only the most absolutely necessary standards are upheld, until that happens any business has legitimate reasons to be involved in government. Call that the ultimate catch 22.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Maybe you skipped over the part about Zuccotti Park being under "public space" law due to 1962 Building Code law?
    Nope but you apparently missed the part about the park rules that allow access by all and the flea baggers with their camp and it's lack of cleanliness broke said rules which the responsibility goes back on the OWS crowd.

  9. #139
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I am on your side when it comes to free speech, as I understand it the protesters are in the wrong, I haven't necessarily seen enough of a counter here to change my mind on that. I do agree in ending a corporate/government alliance because the two sectors should never have a monetary relationship, but the only way to do that is to shrink the regulatory scope of the government to a point where only the most absolutely necessary standards are upheld, until that happens any business has legitimate reasons to be involved in government. Call that the ultimate catch 22.
    Well that is my solution, one to return to free market. I do think that we have lax regulations where we need strong ones, and strong regulations where we need lax ones. There will always be some amount of government necessary to maintain free market, but it has to be limited. Essentially minimized to allow the market to efficiently perform. The corporate capitalist model, however, is one geared more towards oligarchy and not republic.

    I think that in the eyes of the law and what's written the protesters can bee seen as being in the wrong. But I think the law itself is too much and tramples on the spirit of the 1st amendment. Protest and dissent must be allowed maximally. There is no way around that. We MUST have it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning

    Quote Originally Posted by mtlhdtodd View Post
    The right never said they didn't have the right to build it, just that it was a very insensitive thing to do and voiced their displeasure at it. Any attempts at restriction are just as wrong. Again they have the right to build it, but that doesn't mean they can force people to help build it.
    Some Republicans went as far as to call an investigation into the Cordoba House. The overwhelmingly majority of Republicans were not defending the First Amendment or private property rights. Instead, they were too busy being xenophobic and throwing a temper tantrum.

    Republicans' appeals to private property rights are shallow at best. They only appeal to them when it is convenient and morally acceptable to them. In this case, it is morally acceptable to them since they are apologetic to the corporate greed that helped fuel this economic mess.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 10-14-11 at 04:28 PM.

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