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White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires (Continued)

Conservative said:
That makes my point, Reagan added 1.7 trillion to the debt which tripled it and Obama has increased it by 4. trillion dollars or a 40% increase. Which one was worse?
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How was that a response to:

Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
Looks like we have an adult here conservative. I'd also like to point out that both of my parents are liberal.

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Jryan said:
How was that a response to:

Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
Looks like we have an adult here conservative. I'd also like to point out that both of my parents are liberal.

???????????????????????????????????
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Your point obviously was to make a bigger deal out of the tripling of the debt and somehow claiming that made the poster an adult by acknowledging that. My point was accurate would you prefer a 1.7 trillion dollar debt in 8 years or a 4 trillion dollar debt in less than 3? Which one costs the taxpayers more? Any idea what the debt service was on that 1.7 trillion dollar debt due to the recession and inflation we had in 1981-1988? Do you know what the misery index is and how it affects you? Any idea what the misery index is today or was when Obama took office? Compare that to what the people were experience when Reagan took office.
 
Conservative said:
Of course you know more about it than I do. I only spent 35 years in the real business world after getting a college degree as well. There is a reason that this country is better than all other countries in the world and it is called American Exceptionalism.Why would you compare what taxes we pay here to other countries? Want to compare pay as well? Why do you think we need a large central govt. that those taxes fund? What does increasing Federal Taxes do to state taxes?
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I compare tax rates. Comparing pay is irrelevant, different countries have different costs of living. The most accurate you can get with that is comparing purchasing power parity. Look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/GDP_PPP_per_capita_2009_IMF.png

As you can see, other developed nations are at least in the same ballpark when compared to the US.

I never said we needed a large central government, but it is a more favorable government than a small, defenseless, and ultimately useless government (see Articles of Confederation and its failures).

Federal taxes do nothing to state taxes. These are two completely different taxes that are governed by different entities. My state of NJ increased its sales tax and held its income taxes constant at a time of decreasing federal taxes.
 
Conservative said:
Amazing how a "dumb cowboy" from TX with total Democrat control of Congress did what you claim he did. Better think about that.

Keep giving Obama a pass, seems you are in that low percentage that continue to support him. What do you know that the majority in this country doesn't? Your outrage over Bush is misguided and distorts your picture of what Obama has done. he had massive control of Congress and generated the following results 2 1/2 years later yet you blame Bush? No other President in modern history has ever had these kind of results 2 years after a recession ended.
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I know blaming it on the Democrats in congress from 2007 to 2009 is your stock response #9A, its time to take this one out of your bag of tricks:

1. The damage was done (the wars, tax cuts, etc), before the Dems had control of congress...
2. Name a single bill of economic consequence passed by the democratic congress over the veto of the President (since you insist it is the fault of the democratic congress)... I'll save you the trouble, there were none.

Sorry, though the dems may have "held power" in congress from 2007 to 2009, their there presence was incidental to the problems, as a) these problems were already set into motion well before they reported for duty and b) they could really do anything but fuss anyway as they would have to overcome a veto, and they had no veto power (or even power to overcome a fillibuster...)
 
Snevert said:
I compare tax rates. Comparing pay is irrelevant, different countries have different costs of living. The most accurate you can get with that is comparing purchasing power parity. Look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/GDP_PPP_per_capita_2009_IMF.png

As you can see, other developed nations are at least in the same ballpark when compared to the US.

I never said we needed a large central government, but it is a more favorable government than a small, defenseless, and ultimately useless government (see Articles of Confederation and its failures).

Federal taxes do nothing to state taxes. These are two completely different taxes that are governed by different entities. My state of NJ increased its sales tax and held its income taxes constant at a time of decreasing federal taxes.
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cost of living is affected by pay. you want the same pay rate in this country as others around the world?

I am for the govt. our Founders envisioned, strong national defense and promotion of free trade and competition by making sure the laws are enforced.

Federal Taxes do affect state taxes as businesses will move from high tax states to lower tax states when Federal Taxes go up. There has been massive growth in TX because of that.
 
upsideguy said:
I know blaming it on the Democrats in congress from 2007 to 2009 is your stock response #9A, its time to take this one out of your bag of tricks:

1. The damage was done (the wars, tax cuts, etc), before the Dems had control of congress...
2. Name a single bill of economic consequence passed by the democratic congress over the veto of the President (since you insist it is the fault of the democratic congress)... I'll save you the trouble, there were none.

Sorry, though the dems may have "held power" in congress from 2007 to 2009, their there presence was incidental to the problems, as a) these problems were already set into motion well before they reported for duty and b) they could really do anything but fuss anyway as they would have to overcome a veto, and they had no veto power (or even power to overcome a fillibuster...)
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What damage was done prior to Democrats taking control of Congress in January 2007 and please be specific. there was positive job growth, positive economic growth, and low deficits compared to today. Now you can continue to look backwards and be blinded by the present or you can offer solutions today and accept the fact that you voted for an empty suit based upon a message that you didn't understand. Obama understoon Hope and Change and that is what you are getting, massive growth in govt, high debt, high unemployment, and micromanaging of the economy. Private business will not hire until Obama is fired.
 
Conservative said:
Pelosi and Reid controlled the Congress from January 2007 to January 2011. Obama was running for President since about 2006 or right before the Dems took control of Congress.
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The damage to the country was done by then. It occurred years earlier and Obama never voted on any of the bills which allowed it to happen. By 2006, the housing market was crumbling.

Conservative said:
Obama voted for the 2009 budget which passed with overwhelming Democrat support and then put the Department heads in place to spend the money. The results speak for themselves, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years.
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We've been through this many times but you keep changing the number. How much of the FY2009 debt do you attribute to Obama?

Conservative said:
I suggest you take a civics class so as to stop making a fool of yourself.
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Why would I take that advice from the person who think Democrats controlled the Senate when the recession began in March of 2001? I take advice from people I respect and who provide valuable and accurate information -- not from those who lie constantly, provide bogus data, and don't even know which party was in charge during the era's we debate.

Conservative said:
What economic plan, shovel ready jobs that weren't so shovel ready? Obamacare which drives up business costs? A jobs bill that has no chance of passing in the Democrat controlled Senate? What specific economic plan has Obama implemented that generated positive economic results because the actual numbers show that his economy is a diaster.
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Your approval of his plans are not a requirement in order for him to have one.

Conservative said:
Yep, we shall see, tell us why anyone would vote for Obama with the results we have today?
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I dunno, how about for the reason you voted to give Bush 4 more years? By this point in Bush's first term, there were 3 million additional unemployed, compared to 2.3 million under Obama. By this point in Bush's first term, he inherited a debt growing $21 billion a year and turned it into a debt growing at about $550 billion a year, compared to Obama who inherited a debt growing a $1.4 trillion/year and turned it into a debt growing about $1.2 trillion/year.

Obama's doing better than Bush but according to your [il]logic, Bush deserved 4 more years while Obama doesn't.

I also know that if Obama were a Republican, you'd be voting for him next year without even thinking twice about it and deflecting criticism by demeaning his Democrat opponents no matter who they would be.

You vote for party, not results. That's been proven time and time again.
 
Sheik Yerbuti;1059864211]The damage to the country was done by then. It occurred years earlier and Obama never voted on any of the bills which allowed it to happen. By 2006, the housing market was crumbling.
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That is your opinion, the recession began in December 2007 and prior to that there was good job and economic growth. Democrats controlled Congress so why didn't Obama vote? But what does that have to do with the performance today 2 1/2 years after Obama took office?

We've been through this many times but you keep changing the number. How much of the FY2009 debt do you attribute to Obama?
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What you failed to acknowledge is that the 2009 budget was passed almost solely with Democrat votes including Obama's thus the 2009 budget was a Democrat budget.


Why would I take that advice from the person who think Democrats controlled the Senate when the recession began in March of 2001? I take advice from people I respect and who provide valuable and accurate information -- not from those who lie constantly, provide bogus data, and don't even know which party was in charge during the era's we debate.
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What does that have to do with the current economic results today over 2 1/2 years after Obama took office?

Your approval of his plans are not a requirement in order for him to have one.
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If he had one then that makes him a bigger disaster than the actual results show. Just goes to show what happens when you vote for someone with zero leadership and executive management skills.


I dunno, how about for the reason you voted to give Bush 4 more years? By this point in Bush's first term, there were 3 million additional unemployed, compared to 2.3 million under Obama. By this point in Bush's first term, he inherited a debt growing $21 billion a year and turned it into a debt growing at about $550 billion a year, compared to Obama who inherited a debt growing a $1.4 trillion/year and turned it into a debt growing about $1.2 trillion/year.
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Why? because the alternative was Gore and then Kerry. What does that have to do with the 25 million unemployed and under Employed Americans today? You blaming the 2001-2002 numbers on today's performance?

Obama's doing better than Bush but according to your [il]logic, Bush deserved 4 more years while Obama doesn't.
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Right, because every Republican candidate beats the Obama alternative, not so when Bush was running for election and re-election

I also know that if Obama were a Republican, you'd be voting for him next year without even thinking twice about it and deflecting criticism by demeaning his Democrat opponents no matter who they would be.

You vote for party, not results. That's been proven time and time again.
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As has been pointed out many times over the past few months I have voted for more Democrats than you and the fact that Obama is a Democrat has nothing to do with my vote but the fact that he is a radical liberal Democrat disqualifies him from my vote. Your speculation on how I vote is noted but like just about every issue you don't have a clue there as well.
 
Conservative said:
Amazing how a "dumb cowboy" from TX with total Democrat control of Congress did what you claim he did. Better think about that.
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He didn't, you're just lying as usual. His help came from Republicans, not Democrats ...


"Thanks to our policies, home ownership in America is at an all-time high." ~ George Bush, 9.2.2004, RNC acceptance speech​
 
Conservative said:
What? you didn't get your latest IPhone? That seems to be a depression to young liberals. There was no Great Bush Depression which indicates to me that the youth of today don't have a clue what a depression is. Obama did no such thing as the results today are worse than when he took office except on economic growth which ought to be better when you add 4 trillion to the debt.
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You're lying again, Con ... no one said Bush's Great Recession was a depression.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
You're lying again, Con ... no one said Bush's Great Recession was a depression.
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Post 146, don't you ever stop lying?

Do you even think? I mean what you just said has no logic in it and is almost irrelevant to the argument at hand. Let me sum it up for you. We are saying that BUsh was responsible for the bush great depression and that Obama has attempted (almost successfully) to repair the damage he did. Will you ever just say, sorry I was wrong?
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Conservative said:
That makes my point, Reagan added 1.7 trillion to the debt which tripled it and Obama has increased it by 4. trillion dollars or a 40% increase. Which one was worse?
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Holy ****, Con, you're comparing 1988 dollars with 2011 dollars again??

If you make $100,000/year now but your father made $75,000 in 1930, whose salary was worse?

When are you going to educate yourself and learn what "nominal" means?
 
Conservative said:
What damage was done prior to Democrats taking control of Congress in January 2007 and please be specific.
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Exactly how clueless are you, Con?

Do you even know what led to the financial collape?

Here's a clue ...


"Thanks to our policies, home ownership in America is at an all-time high." ~ George Bush, 9.2.2004, RNC acceptance speech​


Exactly what years do you think the toxic loans, which led to the collapse of the economy, were written? Is it your contention those loans were written in 2007 and 2008?
 
Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post

That makes my point, Reagan added 1.7 trillion to the debt which tripled it and Obama has increased it by 4. trillion dollars or a 40% increase. Which one was worse?
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Uhmm you are comparing apples and oranges here. Riddle me this where would the debt be should Obama triple it?
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
The damage to the country was done by then. It occurred years earlier and Obama never voted on any of the bills which allowed it to happen. By 2006, the housing market was crumbling.

Conservative said:
That is your opinion, the recession began in December 2007 and prior to that there was good job and economic growth. Democrats controlled Congress so why didn't Obama vote? But what does that have to do with the performance today 2 1/2 years after Obama took office?
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Wrong, Con, that is not my opinion ... it's what happened. Within the first 3 months of 2006, we had hit a historic high foreclosure rate ...

Foreclosure Rate Hits Historic High

The percentage of U.S. mortgages entering foreclosure in the first three months of the year was the highest in more than 50 years, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association.

As the association released its numbers, the Federal Reserve held a hearing to determine whether regulators could do anything to crack down on abusive lending practices, which have exacerbated the problem

The problems arose last year as the housing market softened, driving down home prices and making it more difficult for cash-strapped borrowers to sell their homes or refinance their way out of trouble.

The most dramatic fallout took place in the subprime market, which caters to people with blemished credit or other factors that make them a risk to lenders.

You can't blame that on Obama. You can't blame that on Democrats. Where's your outrage at Bush? Where's your outrage at Republicans?

"Thanks to our policies, home ownership in America is at an all-time high." ~ George Bush, 9.2.2004, RNC acceptance speech

Conservative said:
What you failed to acknowledge is that the 2009 budget was passed almost solely with Democrat votes including Obama's thus the 2009 budget was a Democrat budget.
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In case you didn't notice, you didn't answer the question ... how much of the FY2009 debt do you attribute to Obama?

Conservative said:
Just goes to show what happens when you vote for someone with zero leadership and executive management skills.
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Umm, he's lost fewer jobs than Bush and Reagan lost by this point and they both had experience.


Conservative said:
As has been pointed out many times over the past few months I have voted for more Democrats than you and the fact that Obama is a Democrat has nothing to do with my vote but the fact that he is a radical liberal Democrat disqualifies him from my vote. Your speculation on how I vote is noted but like just about every issue you don't have a clue there as well.
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Actually, you lied about that too. You claimed you voted for Kennedy until I pointed out you aren't old enough to have voted for him. And since you turned into a Conservative, you have voted strictly for Republican presidents, so yes, all that matters to you is that the candidate put an "R" after their name.
 
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winston53660 said:
Uhmm you are comparing apples and oranges here. Riddle me this where would the debt be should Obama triple it?
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So 1.7 trillion is more than 4 trillion because it is a 300% increase? That must be liberal logic
 
Conservative said:
So 1.7 trillion is more than 4 trillion because it is a 300% increase? That must be liberal logic
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Again, why are you comparing 1988 dollars with 2011 dollars? You "claim" to be business savyy but I fail to see the evidence in such a claim when you can't even understand the difference between nominal figures and real figures.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Wrong, Con, that is not my opinion ... it's what happened. Within the first 3 months of 2006, we had hit a historic high foreclosure rate ...

Foreclosure Rate Hits Historic High

The percentage of U.S. mortgages entering foreclosure in the first three months of the year was the highest in more than 50 years, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association.

As the association released its numbers, the Federal Reserve held a hearing to determine whether regulators could do anything to crack down on abusive lending practices, which have exacerbated the problem

The problems arose last year as the housing market softened, driving down home prices and making it more difficult for cash-strapped borrowers to sell their homes or refinance their way out of trouble.

The most dramatic fallout took place in the subprime market, which caters to people with blemished credit or other factors that make them a risk to lenders.

You can't blame that on Obama. You can't blame that on Democrats. Where's your outrage at Bush? Where's your outrage at Republicans?

"Thanks to our policies, home ownership in America is at an all-time high." ~ George Bush, 9.2.2004, RNC acceptance speech


In case you didn't notice, you didn't answer the question ... how much of the FY2009 debt do you attribute to Obama?


Umm, he's lost fewer jobs than Bush and Reagan lost by this point and they both had experience.



Actually, you lied about that too. You claimed you voted for Kennedy until I pointed out you aren't old enough to have voted for him. And since you turned into a Conservative, you have voted strictly for Republican presidents, so yes, all that matters to you is that the candidate put an "R" after their name.
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Obama isn't going to get my vote so maybe you ought to work on the other 55% or so that have stated that say he isn't doing a good job.

As for the 2009 deficit, since it was a Democratic budget and Obama had his department heads in charge, all of it will be charged to him. When you accept responsibility for the job, you accept responsibility for the results. That is how leadership works.

Never said I voted for Kennedy, I played Kennedy in the 1960 Civics class. Did you ever take civics? I did vote for Humphrey in 1968, Carter in 1976.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Again, why are you comparing 1988 dollars with 2011 dollars? You "claim" to be business savyy but I fail to see the evidence in such a claim when you can't even understand the difference between nominal figures and real figures.
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Because we pay debt service on the 1.7 trillion dollars not the value of that dollar today.
 
Obama isn't going to get my vote so maybe you ought to work on the other 55% or so that have stated that say he isn't doing a good job.
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You haven't made a very compelling argument as to why he isn't getting your vote...
 
Conservative said:
So 1.7 trillion is more than 4 trillion because it is a 300% increase? That must be liberal logic
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I don't know what kind of logic you are trying to use but it is hilarious watching ya squirm around.

Again, riddle me this where would the debt be should Obama TRIPLE the debt?
 
Jryan said:
You haven't made a very compelling argument as to why he isn't getting your vote...
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Doubt that I could ever make a valid argument to the brainwashed but the economic results and massive attempts at redistribution of wealth along with class warfare certainly have made my decision for me. I won't vote for a leftwing radical that doesn't have a clue how to manage anything. When he learns to accept responsibility for his own failures then that will be the first step towards gaining support.

Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1.3% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings.
 
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