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Thread: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

  1. #151
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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Of course, anybody that thinks crony capitalism doesn't happen on the left is blind. I'm pretty sure you guys will go crazy over this since I know he's not popular with you guys but I agree with Noam Chomsky on the fact that we have less a two party system than a one bussiness party system.

    Hey, it is still America, you are free to think that anyone has it right no matter how foolish that person is. But, what do you think the America would look like in a Noam Chomsky world?

    Proportional system. If 10% of voters are Libertarians then they get 10% of the seats in Congress. As of now, with a two party system, 10% of the population has to join one of the two major parties. The decision is to get some voice in matters or no voice. Libertarians are a great example, a lot of times their economic issues aligns with Conservatives and a lot of times their social issues aligns with Democrats. In a proportional system you would have 10% of Congress go to Libertarians. Those Libertarians would vote with Republicans on economic issues and Democrats on social issues where they disagree. Those 10% Libertarians are being accurately represented. I personally prefer that system.
    Libertarians would do well to focus on the sane. Then maybe their views would gain traction.

    They are not by law but they are by the structure of the first past the post. Wouldn't you agree for example that if you voted Perot instead of Republican it's possible that you not only voted for a guy that never had the support to win, but you also didn't vote for a party that could win and represented a lot of your views? That's why everybody always talks about voting in the "lesser of two evils". Neither party represents fully it's voters.
    Actually, I did vote for Perot. It is a shame that his message was clouded by the sheer nuttery of things like his VP choice.

    Sure, post the video, I don't care. I said that you can't judge a movement by one person. I don't care if the intentionally spit or not. The Cleaver recoiled as if hit with something and turns to the guy. The sides of his mouth are covered by his hands. It's obvious that the Fox News clip is more about trying to prove no spitting took place than trying to analyze the clip. What that clip tells me is that guy is a jerk and I'm sure you or I would want to punch him in the face, doesn't matter if the spit came out intentionally or not.

    This is what I find interesting by what you're doing here. You're saying that the MSM intentionally misled viewers therefore it's fine for "your side" to mislead viewers. I disagree with your view that there's some poor guy out that unjustly attacked by the evil MSM but apparently you condone propaganda because you support it when your side uses it.
    Now listen, I remember being at Tea Party events when someone with Arian, or repugnant views showed up, and you know what happened?? They were surrounded, and ushered out of the event. You can not say that the group doesn't at least condone these anti semitic, or in some cases racist views when they do nothing at all to refute them.

    If that guy actually in his passion let spittle fly that hit Cleaver when he passed, then he should have restrained himself better, but to paint it as intentional as the liberal MSM did in order to paint the Tea Party as some racist mob is every bit as offensive and wrong.

    j-mac
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  2. #152
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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Hey, it is still America, you are free to think that anyone has it right no matter how foolish that person is. But, what do you think the America would look like in a Noam Chomsky world?
    You do know that he's actually pretty "conservative" in the American sense that he's very distrustful of Government. I don't think he's foolish at all, the guy is brilliant I just don't agree with all his views or conclusions.
    Actually, I did vote for Perot. It is a shame that his message was clouded by the sheer nuttery of things like his VP choice.
    I agree with a lot that Perot stood for and I think with a proportional system you would see like minded people actually have some clout in Washington.
    Now listen, I remember being at Tea Party events when someone with Arian, or repugnant views showed up, and you know what happened?? They were surrounded, and ushered out of the event. You can not say that the group doesn't at least condone these anti semitic, or in some cases racist views when they do nothing at all to refute them.
    Good for those Tea Partiers. Like I said though, one person does not make the group anti-semitic. Judge the group on their anti- income inequality anti-crony capitalism stance. If you disagree with those two then you're judging them fairly. To point out some dofus to paint everybody in that crowd and even claim they condone it is wrong.

    If that guy actually in his passion let spittle fly that hit Cleaver when he passed, then he should have restrained himself better, but to paint it as intentional as the liberal MSM did in order to paint the Tea Party as some racist mob is every bit as offensive and wrong.
    I agree with you completely. I cringe anytime I hear Bill Maher or someone else make generalities about the Tea Party. Attack their policies, but smearing them by calling them "xxx" or "yyy" is ridiculous. I think we agree here.

  3. #153
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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Exactly, but those marching and chanting 'Down with Capitalism', and 'Capitalism must end' seem to be wanting something closer to a Venezuelan model, no?



    Such as?



    How many fractionalized candidates would you like to see in our system? Is there some law, or provision that says that others outside the two parties can not run?



    You do realize that we are NOT a democracy right?



    Except that the whole John Lewis, Tea Partier spitting affair was a made up Alinsky tactic employed by the left to marginalize opposition to Obamacare which was being rammed through against the American peoples wishes. It never happened.

    j-mac
    Allinsky is SOOO 1970s.

    Its a Luntz and Lakoff world now.
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  4. #154
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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Allinsky is SOOO 1970s.

    Its a Luntz and Lakoff world now.
    Apparently I'm behind the times...
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's not difficult - Rules for Radicals outlines exactly what to do and how to do it. An example of that is in 1972 when George Herbert Walker Bush was campaigning as described in a biography of Alinksy.
    Sounds EXACTLY like that guy with the obvious illegal immigrants and the signs in spanish.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Sounds EXACTLY like that guy with the obvious illegal immigrants and the signs in spanish.
    Or the balloons the can be made into funny shapes an all.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Apparently I'm behind the times...
    "Its not what you say, its what they hear." - Luntz from his companies logo.

    Cognitive linguitics.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Or the balloons the can be made into funny shapes an all.
    C'mon.

    One white guy, with signs from a group whose website says nothing about a OWS presence, and a bunch of signs in spanish carried by PERFECT STEREOTYPES of illegal immigrants, right down to one of them carrying his lunch box.

    Sounds identical to the alinsky example used.

    The group he allegedly represented is a tenants rights group, not an immigrants rights group. Didn't even see anything that indicated they were particularl9 interested in immigrants TENANT rights.

    Id really like to know what those signs actually said.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Allinsky is SOOO 1970s.

    Its a Luntz and Lakoff world now.
    Although rules for radicals is dated in so far as the times in which it was dedicated to Satan, it is what appears in more cases than not what liberals, and progressives employ as strategy in today's debate.

    Now you can certainly make the case that Luntz for the right, or Lakoff (rhymes with) for the left distorts today's political landscape, the fact remains that Allensky is transparent as the playbook gone to most by todays radicals.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    C'mon.

    One white guy, with signs from a group whose website says nothing about a OWS presence, and a bunch of signs in spanish carried by PERFECT STEREOTYPES of illegal immigrants, right down to one of them carrying his lunch box.

    Sounds identical to the alinsky example used.
    Could be... then we get to the evidence portion. And then we have to ask ourselves --- are there some people who are really that stupid? I think both are possible, certainly.



    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    The group he allegedly represented is a tenants rights group, not an immigrants rights group. Didn't even see anything that indicated they were particularl9 interested in immigrants TENANT rights.

    Id really like to know what those signs actually said.
    I wish I could tell you but I don't speak spanish.

    Edit:

    I just looked at the video again and caught two things:
    1.) The guy who initially is talking has wrathofmcgrath.com at the bottom of his sign. I went to that site and it seems like a legit dude (the guy who was speaking - it's him) and he's described as a Democratic Peace Now Party member. I read a bit of his blog --- it seems very anti big bank and pro UHC, though not much since 2010 apparently.
    Here's a few snippits:

    Quote Originally Posted by wrathofmcgrath.com
    Real solutions for Real Health Care: Vote for the Grayson Bill, or, go the way of World Finance: Broke!

    Picketing Wall Street and Big Bank USA

    Some of us picketed against Wall Street and Big Bank USA in January (2010 - ed.) along with representatives of The Catholic Worker in New York City. We plan to do so again on April 28 with Big Labor and allied groups and other times over the weekend. We invite any others and/or their organizations to join us.
    ....

    To our friends in Greece: Beware Goldman bearing gifts in sacks!
    2.) The Google Translation of the signs in Spanish (all the signs said the same thing) in a literal sense was:

    Escucha wall St.
    escuchen bancos grandes
    Deuuelue nuestro dinero

    which translates into

    Listen to Wall St.
    major banks listen
    Hurt our money



    It doesn't on the surface seem to me to be an Alinsky like trick as I described the one in 1972. Perhaps you will have some luck finding evidence to support your claim - but I did not.
    Last edited by Ockham; 10-10-11 at 05:45 PM.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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