Page 15 of 22 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 150 of 220

Thread: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

  1. #141
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,158

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    It just so happens that Alinsky wasn't a Conservative - the intent of his writings and teachings were to push a very Progressive and socialistic agenda to then liberals - such that they can undermine Republican and Conservative ideals. It just so happens that some of Alinsky's teachings have become so mainstream and his tactics so common that they're not always attributed.
    I didn't say he was a conservative, I said making the assumption that anything that puts Conservatives in a bad light is someone using Alinsky tactics is not a reasonable approach. Like you mentioned, it can and is used by both sides of the aisle. To automatically say something is an Alinsky tactic without proof is incorrect. To say that you're critical of events like this because of the existence of such tactics is a reasonable approach.

    I'm not saying it's always used, but the tactics are certainly common enough. Do you have a specific instance in mind? I have my copy of Rules for Radicals and can review my highlights to see if it coincides.
    I don't understand what you're asking me. I stated that assuming someone is using propaganda, or the "Rules for Radicals" in any instance that you don't like the message is faulty logic. Now if you are just in general cynical that's fine, I understand that because the world is full of spin. Like calling Tea party Racists....that's purely propaganda because it's a generality in order to discredit the group.

    No different than using the term "mob" is to discredit the Wall Street protests.

  2. #142
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I didn't say he was a conservative, I said making the assumption that anything that puts Conservatives in a bad light is someone using Alinsky tactics is not a reasonable approach. Like you mentioned, it can and is used by both sides of the aisle. To automatically say something is an Alinsky tactic without proof is incorrect. To say that you're critical of events like this because of the existence of such tactics is a reasonable approach.



    I don't understand what you're asking me. I stated that assuming someone is using propaganda, or the "Rules for Radicals" in any instance that you don't like the message is faulty logic. Now if you are just in general cynical that's fine, I understand that because the world is full of spin. Like calling Tea party Racists....that's purely propaganda because it's a generality in order to discredit the group.

    No different than using the term "mob" is to discredit the Wall Street protests.
    Alinsky is like Soros, the Koch brothers, or Dick Cheney. He is the monster hiding in the closet to bring out when someone cannot use facts to explain something. That lack of evidence and speculative basis for using these evil boogie men also makes people look like conspiracy theorists.

  3. #143
    Noblesse oblige
    Ockham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Last Seen
    01-27-17 @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,909
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I didn't say he was a conservative, I said making the assumption that anything that puts Conservatives in a bad light is someone using Alinsky tactics is not a reasonable approach.
    What makes it unreasonable? In fact, it's much more likely as I've explained his tactics are very common place and are used by many different people of different political backgrounds. And I didn't say you said he was a conservative, I just pointed that fact out, that his tactics were created for liberal progressives to use against Conservatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Like you mentioned, it can and is used by both sides of the aisle. To automatically say something is an Alinsky tactic without proof is incorrect. To say that you're critical of events like this because of the existence of such tactics is a reasonable approach.
    It depends, as always, on the context of the situation being discussed. At risk of being repetitive, since so much of his tactics are commonplace, many people may use the tactic without knowing where it originated or by whom.

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I don't understand what you're asking me. I stated that assuming someone is using propaganda, or the "Rules for Radicals" in any instance that you don't like the message is faulty logic.
    I was asking if you have a specific instance in mind in which case I can use my copy of R4R and see if the tactic is one mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Now if you are just in general cynical that's fine, I understand that because the world is full of spin. Like calling Tea party Racists....that's purely propaganda because it's a generality in order to discredit the group.
    Well I am very cynical at times that's very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    No different than using the term "mob" is to discredit the Wall Street protests.
    I would guess... though "mob" may be a closer reality than "racist" when comparing. Now if it was "anti-semitic mob" it would be on par with calling the tea party racists.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  4. #144
    Noblesse oblige
    Ockham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Last Seen
    01-27-17 @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,909
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Alinsky is like Soros, the Koch brothers, or Dick Cheney. He is the monster hiding in the closet to bring out when someone cannot use facts to explain something.
    That's a tactic designed to dismiss Alinsky and the damage that he left behind. I know liberals do not like it when others bring up Alinsky. The same type of tactic is used when someone uses the word "Communist" and everyone jumps all over the user saying "You don't know what communism is.. blablabla". You're doing the same thing, dismissing a very real and utilized Alinksy by dismissing it's use and saying "He's the monster hiding in the closet to bring out when someone cannot use facts to explain something."

    Yes, let's all have a nice irrelevant discussion about Alinsky and not discuss the the other stuff... I already had this discussion with Redress - the tactic your using is the same Redress used... the result of which is the same as well; diversion and misdirection.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  5. #145
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    That's a tactic designed to dismiss Alinsky and the damage that he left behind. I know liberals do not like it when others bring up Alinsky. The same type of tactic is used when someone uses the word "Communist" and everyone jumps all over the user saying "You don't know what communism is.. blablabla". You're doing the same thing, dismissing a very real and utilized Alinksy by dismissing it's use and saying "He's the monster hiding in the closet to bring out when someone cannot use facts to explain something."

    Yes, let's all have a nice irrelevant discussion about Alinsky and not discuss the the other stuff... I already had this discussion with Redress - the tactic your using is the same Redress used... the result of which is the same as well; diversion and misdirection.
    I cannot tell if this is well disguised humor or just very sad.

    But if its the latter, are you really trying to say my beliefs (that this alinksy stuff is just paranioa) are a tactic?
    Last edited by tacomancer; 10-10-11 at 03:22 PM.

  6. #146
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,158

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Then I am sure you would apply the same restraint to paint with broad brushes, the Tea Party? Look, no one advocates crony capitalism, in fact when it happened with the Bush administration it was just as wrong as when Obama does it with Solyndra. Right?
    Of course, anybody that thinks crony capitalism doesn't happen on the left is blind. I'm pretty sure you guys will go crazy over this since I know he's not popular with you guys but I agree with Noam Chomsky on the fact that we have less a two party system than a one bussiness party system.

    But that is my point, independents, Libertarians, Socialists, Communists, and any other group is able to get on the ballots by conforming to the rules that everyone else has to follow. There are plenty of alternatives if you look for them. However, if it is as you say a "structural issue" that would imply that you want to tear down that structure, and my question is replace it with what?
    Proportional system. If 10% of voters are Libertarians then they get 10% of the seats in Congress. As of now, with a two party system, 10% of the population has to join one of the two major parties. The decision is to get some voice in matters or no voice. Libertarians are a great example, a lot of times their economic issues aligns with Conservatives and a lot of times their social issues aligns with Democrats. In a proportional system you would have 10% of Congress go to Libertarians. Those Libertarians would vote with Republicans on economic issues and Democrats on social issues where they disagree. Those 10% Libertarians are being accurately represented. I personally prefer that system.
    Proportional representation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Then they are not locked into voting for those two are they? I mean I already pointed out that other parties exist....
    They are not by law but they are by the structure of the first past the post. Wouldn't you agree for example that if you voted Perot instead of Republican it's possible that you not only voted for a guy that never had the support to win, but you also didn't vote for a party that could win and represented a lot of your views? That's why everybody always talks about voting in the "lesser of two evils". Neither party represents fully it's voters.

    So there you have it, the media inflated this intentionally as some do today to generalize that all Tea partiers are racists, and spit on black caucus members...So why is again that I shouldn't do that concerning that jack ass verbally attacking the Jewish man at the OWS?
    Sure, post the video, I don't care. I said that you can't judge a movement by one person. I don't care if the intentionally spit or not. The Cleaver recoiled as if hit with something and turns to the guy. The sides of his mouth are covered by his hands. It's obvious that the Fox News clip is more about trying to prove no spitting took place than trying to analyze the clip. What that clip tells me is that guy is a jerk and I'm sure you or I would want to punch him in the face, doesn't matter if the spit came out intentionally or not.

    This is what I find interesting by what you're doing here. You're saying that the MSM intentionally misled viewers therefore it's fine for "your side" to mislead viewers. I disagree with your view that there's some poor guy out that unjustly attacked by the evil MSM but apparently you condone propaganda because you support it when your side uses it.

  7. #147
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,158

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    What makes it unreasonable? In fact, it's much more likely as I've explained his tactics are very common place and are used by many different people of different political backgrounds. And I didn't say you said he was a conservative, I just pointed that fact out, that his tactics were created for liberal progressives to use against Conservatives.
    Ok, so we agree for the most part. If you are cynical of any media that comes at you that can be rational. Now if you only apply it to to say someone spitting on a Congressman and not when it's coming from the "other side" that's just partisan blinders. Which is irrational.
    It depends, as always, on the context of the situation being discussed. At risk of being repetitive, since so much of his tactics are commonplace, many people may use the tactic without knowing where it originated or by whom.
    I would say he may of penned some of the tactics but they were by no means new. I don't understand the fascination with the guy because propaganda has been used for a long time.

    I was asking if you have a specific instance in mind in which case I can use my copy of R4R and see if the tactic is one mentioned.
    Death Panels, Death tax, both are propaganda. Use of the term "government controlled healthcare" over "single payer" because one polls negatively and the other is actually popular. In the last election Nancy Pelosi the "west coast Liberal" was used in campaign commercials from the west coast to the east coast in order to personalize the opposition. There's been this constant attack on "progressives" and "liberals" from the right for awhile now. They basically create these generalities of a "liberal" or a "progressive" in order to demonize the other side. Us for them, instead of focusing on policy you constantly can hear some form of "liberals are bad". Before Obama took office is was a socialist/facist/commie or some form or ignorant attack. Like I said, it's not hard to find the spin on the right and if you are truly going to be cynical of spin then your BS meter should be constantly going off.
    I would guess... though "mob" may be a closer reality than "racist" when comparing. Now if it was "anti-semitic mob" it would be on par with calling the tea party racists.
    I disagree...mob is associated with lawlesness. It's a smear plain and simple. Just like labeling the whole Tea party racists is a smear.

  8. #148
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,319

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Well the tea party is a racist hate group. Generalizations, aren't they fun?

    Also, many of them seem to misunderstand the loaded terms they throw around-


    Only when they're accurate, which in this case, it's not.

    Which is it, is he a fascist or a communist?
    A little bit of both, actually. I think he leans more toward facism, because he supports government control of privately owned businesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #149
    Noblesse oblige
    Ockham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Last Seen
    01-27-17 @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,909
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I cannot tell if this is well disguised humor or just very sad.

    But if its the latter, are you really trying to say my beliefs (that this alinksy stuff is just paranioa) are a tactic?
    You made an excuse and dismissed the topic of Alinsky as invalid and only used when someone doesn't have facts. Sure it's a tactic - perhaps you didn't know that and just reflexively did it? Certainly possible.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #150
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Last Seen
    09-24-12 @ 02:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Owners of Zuccotti Park Say Conditions Unsanitary From Wall Street Protests

    If Avarice had a smell, you'd hardly notice the park at all.

Page 15 of 22 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •