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Bin Laden death: 'CIA doctor' accused of treason

It's simply not that simple.

Let's try a little pretending, do you remember pretend? Barney the Dinosaur use to teach it to us. Anywho.

Let's say you're an uneducated farm boy in the mountains of Afghanistan, you don't have anything, I mean like you and your entire family live in a one room hut where you all sleep on the floor and **** outside.



While you're tending to your small herd an American airstrike destroys your hut and kills your entire family... mom, dad, your two sisters and your baby brother...

Some guys come to you and ask "Do you wanna get revenge?"

That doesn't excuse or make me happy that he went into a market and blew himself up, or killed American soldiers. It doesn't.

But it explains WHY he does what he does, and until you understand that, peel back the "They're all just evil" simpleton viewpoint, only then can you begin to turn back the tide.

Actually I heard an interview with a guy on PBS yesterday that wrote a book called Terrorist In Love. Weird freakin title but I am going to read it. It was about how fooked up kids were used and brainwashed to do suicide bombings. Thing is every criminal has a sob story about mommy and daddy and blah blah blah, cry me a river. Understanding terrorist will not stop terrorisim, killing them before they kill us will. Oh and by the way your hero obama is killing more civilians in his drone attacks than Bush ever imagined and "creating terrorist", according to you that is.
 
The collusion with terrorist in Pakistan is very worrisome. I feel it is only a matter of time until a nuclear device is handed off to alquiada and 9-11 becomes a small event in comparison. Imagine if NYC was literally wiped off the map. If I was president this would keep me up nights. The first thing I would do is secure our border with Mexico, that I believe would be the point of entry for such a device.

Imagine something 200 times as huge as 9-11... and that's how many Iraqi civilians died as a result of the US invasion. That should keep everyone up at night.

The nuclear genie is out of the bottle and can't be put back in. Perhaps a reallocation of "defense" assets from CENTCOM to the homeland would better able to protect us from the threat of a nuclear strike.
 
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Defending terrorist huh, SHEEESH! You are correct I am not capable of seeing terrorist as freedom fighters.

That's the point. Terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology, so it has no inherent moral component beyond the fact that it is violent. Violence is always a matter of questionable morality.
 
Actually I heard an interview with a guy on PBS yesterday that wrote a book called Terrorist In Love. Weird freakin title but I am going to read it. It was about how fooked up kids were used and brainwashed to do suicide bombings. Thing is every criminal has a sob story about mommy and daddy and blah blah blah, cry me a river. Understanding terrorist will not stop terrorisim, killing them before they kill us will. Oh and by the way your hero obama is killing more civilians in his drone attacks than Bush ever imagined and "creating terrorist", according to you that is.

Oh brother.

Your feeble mind is incapable of grasping my point.

Obama, Bush, it doesn't matter. Just because I have an opposing viewpoint does not mean I'm all about Obama... but I suppose if you live in the political bizzaro world where you believe only two kind of people exist, conservatives and liberals, then I suppose I can understand where you're coming from ;)

I should have added my point about how we do need to understand how people become terrorists to cut off the problem at the source, but also deal with these recruiters, the old men hiding behind the Quran, twisting its words to drive men to madness and destruction, they're the real threat.
 
This islamic fascist be us or die movement can in no way be called freedom fighters. If you can in any way see their side I guess you can see Satans side too. Damn that sounded religious. LOL

Every freedom fighter is a terrorist to someone else. Don't get stuck in the 2d flatland paradigm of us and them- it's a complex world.
 
we do need to understand how people become terrorists to cut off the problem at the source, but also deal with these recruiters, the old men hiding behind the Quran, twisting its words to drive men to madness and destruction, they're the real threat.

That's an insightful point I hadn't considered in that context before, at least not at that level of detail. In that context, I view it this way...

In any society, there are the disafected youth. What becomes of them is determined in no small way by the adults that take them under their wings. In different cultures, these have been anything from radical Muslim imams to Jesuit monks, Buddhist monks, communist revolutionaries, or punk rockers, to give a few examples...

Can the angst of youth in Central Asia and elsewhere be diverted away from the Islamist radicals? Perhaps, but drone strikes are not the correct tactic.

Thanks for making me have a thought :)
 
Oh brother.

Your feeble mind is incapable of grasping my point.

Obama, Bush, it doesn't matter. Just because I have an opposing viewpoint does not mean I'm all about Obama... but I suppose if you live in the political bizzaro world where you believe only two kind of people exist, conservatives and liberals, then I suppose I can understand where you're coming from ;)

I should have added my point about how we do need to understand how people become terrorists to cut off the problem at the source, but also deal with these recruiters, the old men hiding behind the Quran, twisting its words to drive men to madness and destruction, they're the real threat.

From what I understand, the bastards have a PROFILE of the type of kid they seek out to brainwash into dying for Allah.

Self serving opportunists, sacrificing kids and not themselves.
 
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think it is time we pulled our troops out of Afghanistan and broke off all support and diplomatic relations with Pakistan. We can't break away while our troops are in Afghanistan because we have go thru Pakistan to get the Afghanistan. No other country in the region would allow use to go overland or use their airspace.
So let's discuss our plan on the internet then. That will make it much easier for us to fool the enemy.
I've looked high and low for any sort of documentation that I'm in charge of military decisions and can't find a shred of evidence. Guess I'm just a citizen discussing my POV on the Internets. I'm absolutely positive that the Pakistani leaders are hanging on my every word and taking them as an indication of what the US government has planned. :lamo
 
From what I understand, the bastards have a PROFILE of the type of kid they seek out to brainwash into dying for Allah.

Self serving opportunists, sacrificing kids and not themselves.

Precisely.

10 chars.
 
If Pakistan didn't have nukes, I'd be with you on that one buddy.

Pakistan however does have an ally that doesn't really care what it does, and that's China.

The thing is niether the US nor the Chinese can afford to let Pakistan go failed state.

truth. the Pakistani Taliban with nukes is a scary scenario

I really, truly, madly, deeply hope there's a contingency plan in place to invade Pakistan, secure all Nuclear Weapons and ship them out of the country if things go pear shaped.

that would be logically impossible to accomplish faster than Pakistan would be capable of firing her nukes.

consider this reason #1,987,543 why the Obama Administration canking the missile shield was dumb, dumb, dumb.
 
I've looked high and low for any sort of documentation that I'm in charge of military decisions and can't find a shred of evidence. Guess I'm just a citizen discussing my POV on the Internets. I'm absolutely positive that the Pakistani leaders are hanging on my every word and taking them as an indication of what the US government has planned.

:shrug: when I was in Fallujah, I remember we had a section of the city we found covered in a particularly interesting propaganda campaign. AQI was warning locals that if they worked with us or cooperated with us or the police, that they would be murdered along with their families when the Americans left. As proof that the Americans were going to leave before AQI was defeated, they quoted Senator Reid and Senator Clinton.
 
That's an insightful point I hadn't considered in that context before, at least not at that level of detail. In that context, I view it this way...

In any society, there are the disafected youth. What becomes of them is determined in no small way by the adults that take them under their wings. In different cultures, these have been anything from radical Muslim imams to Jesuit monks, Buddhist monks, communist revolutionaries, or punk rockers, to give a few examples...

Can the angst of youth in Central Asia and elsewhere be diverted away from the Islamist radicals? Perhaps, but drone strikes are not the correct tactic.

Thanks for making me have a thought :)

Drone Strikes can be part of the proper strategy. You have to A) publicly demonstrate that the leadership is not invulnerable and B) keep enemy organizations disorganized and ineffective while your main push occurs on the ground.
 
Every freedom fighter is a terrorist to someone else. Don't get stuck in the 2d flatland paradigm of us and them- it's a complex world.

Here is where I think some of you just don’t get it. This Wahabe cult of Islam is in no way shape or form about fighting for freedom and they never even profess or proclaim that. You try to put your morals and viewpoints on a group that hates Christians in particular and Western society in general. You need to wake up; this is an entirely different thing than people fighting for their country or to retain their religion. It is about be like them or be dead. Naïve is the only word to describe you and that is being polite.
 
Here is where I think some of you just don’t get it. This Wahabe cult of Islam is in no way shape or form about fighting for freedom and they never even profess or proclaim that. You try to put your morals and viewpoints on a group that hates Christians in particular and Western society in general. You need to wake up; this is an entirely different thing than people fighting for their country or to retain their religion. It is about be like them or be dead. Naïve is the only word to describe you and that is being polite.

Once again you utterly fail in every way possible to understand our point.

You don't get it and you never will.

Jesus you don't even get that the Term "freedom fighter" doesn't nessecarily mean a person who fights for freedom, except within a defined context that is done by the person who's defining it.

If you see the Americans as a foreign occupier, then anyone who opposes them is a "Freedom Fighter" not nessecarily because they're fighting for "freedom" or your "freedom" but fighting for the country to be free of theforeigners.

Again no one is saying what a terrorist does is acceptable, no one is condoning the mass killings of soldiers or civilians, but what we're trying to get through your trogdoloyte one size fits all viewpoint of the world is that people don't just wake up in the morning and decide "Hey, today I'd like to be a terrorist and kill a bunch of people because I'm evil".

There's a process that gets people to these places, it's complex, and it's sometimes the consequence of decisions made loooooooooooooong ago.
 
Perhaps I can mediate here. While I agree with what Jetboogieman is saying, I think I understand what sawyerloggingon is saying.

Here is where I think some of you just don’t get it. This Wahabe cult of Islam is in no way shape or form about fighting for freedom and they never even profess or proclaim that. You try to put your morals and viewpoints on a group that hates Christians in particular and Western society in general. You need to wake up; this is an entirely different thing than people fighting for their country or to retain their religion. It is about be like them or be dead. Naïve is the only word to describe you and that is being polite.
Once again you utterly fail in every way possible to understand our point.

[...]

Again no one is saying what a terrorist does is acceptable, no one is condoning the mass killings of soldiers or civilians, but what we're trying to get through your trogdoloyte one size fits all viewpoint of the world is that people don't just wake up in the morning and decide "Hey, today I'd like to be a terrorist and kill a bunch of people because I'm evil".

There's a process that gets people to these places, it's complex, and it's sometimes the consequence of decisions made loooooooooooooong ago.

I think a Freedom Fighter would be someone who feels his country is overwhelmed by foreign forces and fights against them in a war of attrition to persuade them to leave. Once the foreign forces leave, he will be sated and go back to farming or whatever he did before.

But if the freedom fighter is NOT sated once foreign forces leave, and he fully intends to spread his ideology/religion to other nations, then I think he cannot be described as a Freedom Fighter. When you plan attacks in other nations, and your nation is not under attack, you are not a freedom fighter, you are simply a terrorist. So the revolutionaries of Egypt and Libya were freedom fighters. Once the tyrants were pushed out of their country, they stopped fighting. Al-Queda, are NOT freedom fighters. They move from country to country pushing their own brand of Muslim faith on everyone else, not just the US or the Western nations. The Taliban, had they stayed in Afghanistan could call themselves freedom fighters, but they expanded into Pakistan (Swat Valley) and to some degree, into China. So the Taliban are not freedom fighters after all.

That being said, I found this link about the Wahabi sect:
Wahhabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here's an excerpt:
The militant Islam of Osama bin Laden did not have its origins in the teachings of Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab and was not representative of Wahhabi Islam as it is practiced in contemporary Saudi Arabia, yet for the media it came to define Wahhabi Islam during the later years of bin Laden's lifetime. However "unrepresentative" bin Laden's global jihad was of Islam in general and Wahhabi Islam in particular, its prominence in headline news took Wahhabi Islam across the spectrum from revival and reform to global jihad.

Frankly, I don't think there is anything militant about the Muslim faith at all. What we see are people who use it as a tool for conquest. When someone spreads a religion through the use of violence, they aren't trying to make anyone's life or afterlife any better. They are trying to establish a "power base" for their own personal benefit.
 
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When you plan attacks in other nations, and your nation is not under attack, you are not a freedom fighter, you are simply a terrorist.

Did you just call every member of the US armed forces and civillian leadership terrorists? Or do you invoke the American exceptionalism argument?
 
Did you just call every member of the US armed forces and civillian leadership terrorists? Or do you invoke the American exceptionalism argument?

Way to go, pulling my words out of context.

Of course, the answer is no. The US military does NOT directly target civilians. They do NOT strap bomb vests to retarded people and send them into crowded markets to be exploded. That's terrorism. They do NOT throw acid in teen-aged girls' faces to punish them for going to school. That's terrorism. They do NOT plant serin gas nor bombs in crowded subways filled with civilians. That's terrorism. They do NOT launch missiles, at neighborhoods with no military value, from schoolyards hoping that counter-battery fire will kill the children in the schoolyard. That's terrorism. They do NOT plant bombs in civilian airliners hoping to kill all the innocents inside. That's terrorism.

Capice?
 
If Pakistan didn't have nukes, I'd be with you on that one buddy.

Pakistan however does have an ally that doesn't really care what it does, and that's China.

The thing is niether the US nor the Chinese can afford to let Pakistan go failed state.

I really, truly, madly, deeply hope there's a contingency plan in place to invade Pakistan, secure all Nuclear Weapons and ship them out of the country if things go pear shaped.

More likely they'll just bumrush money to whichever army general can bring things under control as fast as possible but I hope there's a plan beyond that.

Pakistan has played both sides of the fence where U.S. military and political involvement is concerned. But we have one ace up our sleves and it's called INDIA!

From the book, "Obama's Wars," by Bob Woodward, pg 4:

The Pakistani leadership believed the U.S. would eventually withdraw from the region, as it had toward the end of the Cold War once the occupying Soviet forces retreated from Afghanistan in 1989. Their paranoid mind-set was, in part, understandable. If America moved out again, India and Iran would fill the power vacuum inside Afghanistan. And most of all, Pakistan feared India, an avowed enemy for more than 60 years. As a growing economic and military powerhouse, India had numerous intelligence programs inside Afghanistan to spread its influence there. Pakistan worried more about being encircled by India than being underminded by extremists inside its borders.

From WorldNews.com: "Pakistan warns Afghanistan after deal with India sparks fears of encirclement by New Delhi"

Seems Pakistans worse fear has become reality. Hopefully, this Afghan-India alliance which clearly has large support by the U.S. government (backed by both the Obama administration and the former GW Bush administration) will keep the Pakistanis in line especially since the U.S. is starting to withdraw support for Pakistan.

See World News article, "Terror shadow: US set to cut Pak ties."
 
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Perhaps I can mediate here. While I agree with what Jetboogieman is saying, I think I understand what sawyerloggingon is saying.



I think a Freedom Fighter would be someone who feels his country is overwhelmed by foreign forces and fights against them in a war of attrition to persuade them to leave. Once the foreign forces leave, he will be sated and go back to farming or whatever he did before.

But if the freedom fighter is NOT sated once foreign forces leave, and he fully intends to spread his ideology/religion to other nations, then I think he cannot be described as a Freedom Fighter. When you plan attacks in other nations, and your nation is not under attack, you are not a freedom fighter, you are simply a terrorist. So the revolutionaries of Egypt and Libya were freedom fighters. Once the tyrants were pushed out of their country, they stopped fighting. Al-Queda, are NOT freedom fighters. They move from country to country pushing their own brand of Muslim faith on everyone else, not just the US or the Western nations. The Taliban, had they stayed in Afghanistan could call themselves freedom fighters, but they expanded into Pakistan (Swat Valley) and to some degree, into China. So the Taliban are not freedom fighters after all.

That being said, I found this link about the Wahabi sect:
Wahhabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here's an excerpt:


Frankly, I don't think there is anything militant about the Muslim faith at all. What we see are people who use it as a tool for conquest. When someone spreads a religion through the use of violence, they aren't trying to make anyone's life or afterlife any better. They are trying to establish a "power base" for their own personal benefit.

You do seem to get what I'm saying, thank you. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a brick wall in here.
 
Pakistan has played both sides of the fence where U.S. military and political involvement is concerned. But we have one ace up our sleeves and it's called INDIA!.......

Seems Pakistan's worse fear has become reality. Hopefully, this Afghan-India alliance which clearly has large support by the U.S. government (backed by both the Obama administration and the former GW Bush administration) will keep the Pakistanis in line especially since the U.S. is starting to withdraw support for Pakistan.
Looks like Obama has come up with a non-military solution to both securing Afghanistan when we leave and to limiting the power of a country that has been proven to be harboring, protecting and likely funding terrorists. Perhaps much of the money that has been going to Pakistan could be directed toward India instead and US bases in India and Afghanistan could serve to protect countries that are not terrorists-friendly from countries that are.

Pakistan has nukes, but would it be will to use them if it knew Islamabad would turn into Chernobyl if they did?
 
Looks like Obama has come up with a non-military solution to both securing Afghanistan when we leave and to limiting the power of a country that has been proven to be harboring, protecting and likely funding terrorists. Perhaps much of the money that has been going to Pakistan could be directed toward India instead and US bases in India and Afghanistan could serve to protect countries that are not terrorists-friendly from countries that are.

Pakistan has nukes, but would it be will to use them if it knew Islamabad would turn into Chernobyl if they did?

Sounds like a good exit strategy to me. I still don't know why we backed Pakistan over India in the first place.
 
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Never forget that.

You can buy a countrys president, it's generals.

But you can't buy its people and its army.

That doesn't make what's happening right, but to understand it requires an ability to look at things from a perspective I suspect you are not capable of.

For whose freedom, and on whose behalf, was Osama ben Laden fighting for?
 
From what I understand, the bastards have a PROFILE of the type of kid they seek out to brainwash into dying for Allah.

Certainly. And it has been know for some time that many people can easily become Fascist, Communist, Nazi or Islamic terrorist. The ideology doesn't really matter. Teaching people to hate the other is what's important, and to blame others for the unhappiness and uncertainty in their own lives.

The pattern is the same with all these ideologies and with similar goals of eternal happiness for themselves and for those who share their battle.

To put that to the test we can easily see how advanced nations like Germany and Italy became Nazis and Fascists while many in the West supported Communism, or how many have sympathy for radical Islam. The missing link is us.
 
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