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Thread: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    This is a great action, I'm glad to see the OWS movements acting as a spark in getting other movements active while at the same time linking up with those other struggles and universalizing them. We're seeing this all over the country, from 11/17 to OWS calling for the occupation of foreclosed homes to OWS linking up with Occupy/Decolonize the Hood movements and so on. I really hope this momentum can be maintained.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Very true. To much regulation is just as bad as to little. Where do we find the middle ground??? I am no economist but it must be possible?
    The real question isn't HOW MANY, it's WHICH regulations and how we choose to enforce them.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Capitalism is naturally competitive. Regulations to perceive competitive forces are usually in response to results of government action in the past that restricted competition either on purpose or more than likely by accident.

    Every regulation cost money and when you have as many as we have they cost a lot of money with entire teams to make sure all are followed and to keep up with new ones down the pipe. That doesn't even mention the huge amount of cash it takes to comply with them all. All of this cost money and considering that almost all regulations affect small to large business it kills off competition very easily just by there existence alone. Btw, I used to be on such a team. Before you call someone stupid might want to know what you are talking about.
    Governments regulate because it gives them power. No other reason.
    If that's not stupid talk, I don't know what is.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The real question isn't HOW MANY, it's WHICH regulations and how we choose to enforce them.
    Maybe, but we have so many on the books now we can't even keep up with them to enforce them, and choose to enforce the stupid ones. I mean look at what the Fender guitar company is going through because of some damn trees. We are wasting time and money going after a company because of where they buy wood for their guitars, just silly.

    A way to keep company's competitive without a strangle hold by government is possible. I just don't know enough about economics to say how.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Maybe, but we have so many on the books now we can't even keep up with them to enforce them, and choose to enforce the stupid ones. I mean look at what the Fender guitar company is going through because of some damn trees. We are wasting time and money going after a company because of where they buy wood for their guitars, just silly.

    A way to keep company's competitive without a strangle hold by government is possible. I just don't know enough about economics to say how.
    I agree completely.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Every regulation cost money
    That is emphatically not true. Lets just take the standard example of an externality. Say a company has two options for how to make a widget. One process costs them $10 per widget, but requires dumping toxic waste in the lake beside the factory, which causes $10 per widget worth of damage to the fishing industry and property values. The other option is to build the widget in a way that costs $15 per widget, but does not require dumping waste into the lake.

    For the business, in a non-regulated environment, the smart move is to make the widgets the $10 way, but that is not the most efficient solution for the economy overall. Overall, that is wasting $5 per widget this factory makes. So, what you need is for government to step in and force the company to take the externality (the cost created by dumping the waste in the lake) into account in their calculations. That means regulation. Either the government should prohibit dumping in the lake or force the company doing it to pay for the costs of the problems they are creating. Either way, that regulation is saving money, not costing money. The economy as a whole is $5 better off per widget because of that regulation. Ideally, every regulation of an externality works that way.

    Regulations designed to preserve competition are even more "profitable" for the economy. A monopoly in a key sector could cost the country entire percentages of our GDP each year. Standard oil, for example, really was doing that.

    Now, that doesn't mean all regulations are good for the economy. Some are poorly designed. Some are designed to protect something non-economic like quality of life. But to say they all cost money is flat wrong.
    Last edited by teamosil; 11-10-11 at 01:02 AM.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That is emphatically not true. Lets just take the standard example of an externality. Say a company has two options for how to make a widget. One process costs them $10 per widget, but requires dumping toxic waste in the lake beside the factory, which causes $10 per widget worth of damage to the fishing industry and property values. The other option is to build the widget in a way that costs $15 per widget, but does not require dumping waste into the lake.

    For the business, in a non-regulated environment, the smart move is to make the widgets the $10 way, but that is not the most efficient solution for the economy overall. Overall, that is wasting $5 per widget this factory makes. So, what you need is for government to step in and force the company to take the externality (the cost created by dumping the waste in the lake) into account in their calculations. That means regulation. Either the government should prohibit dumping in the lake or force the company doing it to pay for the costs of the problems they are creating. Either way, that regulation is saving money, not costing money. The economy as a whole is $5 better off per widget because of that regulation. Ideally, every regulation of an externality works that way.

    Regulations designed to preserve competition are even more "profitable" for the economy. A monopoly in a key sector could cost the country entire percentages of our GDP each year. Standard oil, for example, really was doing that.

    Now, that doesn't mean all regulations are good for the economy. Some are poorly designed. Some are designed to protect something non-economic like quality of life. But to say they all cost money is flat wrong.
    They all cost money only if you fail to price in the cost of the externality - which, to be fair, is often very difficult to calculate.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/...roy-the-planet
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 11-10-11 at 01:09 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If that's not stupid talk, I don't know what is.
    You'd might be surprised at how often people who gain power enjoy exercising it over others.

    Do you rely on the good will of politicians, bureaucrats and those who seek power?

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You'd might be surprised at how often people who gain power enjoy exercising it over others.

    Do you rely on the good will of politicians, bureaucrats and those who seek power?
    No, of course not. But that in no way contradicts the fact that the statement "Governments regulate only for the sake of regulating" is inherently idiotic. Regulations don't exist for their own sake. Neither do regulators simply regulate because they are on a power trip. Congress did not pass the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act because they thought it would be fun for the folks at the EPA to piss people off.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 11-10-11 at 01:17 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Do you rely on the good will of politicians, bureaucrats and those who seek power?
    Politicians and bureaucrats have a lot less power than you think.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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