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Thread: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"
    "We have to destroy capitalism in order to save it"
    The Mahablog Destroying Capitalism to Save It

    Obama: It Became Necessary to Destroy the Economy to Save it | Common Dreams

    Governments regulate because it gives them power. No other reason.
    Progressivism is the enemy.
    I don't know what to tell you man. That's just stupid talk. Every economist agrees that government regulation is necessary to preserve competition and force companies to take account of externalities. Nobody would argue that. What they do argue about is the extent to which the government should make them take account of externalities, but nobody argues that they should just ignore them, and certainly nobody in their right minds argues that the government doesn't need to take steps to preserve competition... Capitalism without competition is not capitalism. That's the core engine of capitalism. I dunno man. You've got to do some more reading on economics before we can really discuss it.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The (rabidly anti-regulation) world bank publishes a report each year about the most "business friendly" countries. The US ranked 4th last year. The countries ahead of us are all very small. Of the significant economies, we're clearly the most pro-business.

    Doing Business in United States - World Bank Group

    So I guess your pretty far off base with that one.



    Fascist? Regulating business isn't fascist... Fascism doesn't really have a clear economic policy. The most notable fascist government- Nazi Germany- was on the free market end of things. What fascism means is a government that is socially repressive, typically combined with nationalism or racism.
    Why dodge my question? What impact do you think those 80,000 regulations have on businesses, my friend?

    Fascism is more than you state:

    Fascists advocate: a state-directed, regulated economy that is dedicated to the nation; the use and primacy of regulated private property and private enterprise contingent upon service to the nation or state;

    Perhaps the world bank is not a good determinant? Perhaps they do not address the impact that 80,000 regulations have on business in the US.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    may those who are anti-union live to see why we had them in the first place.
    May those who are pro-Union live to see how they have outlived there usefulness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't know what to tell you man. That's just stupid talk. Every economist agrees that government regulation is necessary to preserve competition and force companies to take account of externalities. Nobody would argue that. What they do argue about is the extent to which the government should make them take account of externalities, but nobody argues that they should just ignore them, and certainly nobody in their right minds argues that the government doesn't need to take steps to preserve competition... Capitalism without competition is not capitalism. That's the core engine of capitalism. I dunno man. You've got to do some more reading on economics before we can really discuss it.
    Government regulations do not preserve competition. They destroy competition. I believe you know this. I am sure that politicians and economists would agree that government has to regulate businesses. What else could they say?

    I am just fine on economics. Thank you very much.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't know what to tell you man. That's just stupid talk. Every economist agrees that government regulation is necessary to preserve competition and force companies to take account of externalities. Nobody would argue that. What they do argue about is the extent to which the government should make them take account of externalities, but nobody argues that they should just ignore them, and certainly nobody in their right minds argues that the government doesn't need to take steps to preserve competition... Capitalism without competition is not capitalism. That's the core engine of capitalism. I dunno man. You've got to do some more reading on economics before we can really discuss it.
    Absolutely. We do need some regulation otherwise the need to regulate trade between the states would not have been granted by the Constitution. One of the things that turn me off from libertarian thought is that the markets will correct itself. We all should know by now that will never work.

    My problem is to much regulation at this point in some sectors and that person-hood should never have been given to corporations. If we could get corporate money out of our politics it would make for better candidates and real choice.

    You are pretty smart for a progressive, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Government regulations do not preserve competition. They destroy competition. I believe you know this. I am sure that politicians and economists would agree that government has to regulate businesses. What else could they say?

    I am just fine on economics. Thank you very much.
    I hate to disagree but the monopoly's of the 20's and 30's say that is not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't know what to tell you man. That's just stupid talk. Every economist agrees that government regulation is necessary to preserve competition and force companies to take account of externalities. Nobody would argue that. What they do argue about is the extent to which the government should make them take account of externalities, but nobody argues that they should just ignore them, and certainly nobody in their right minds argues that the government doesn't need to take steps to preserve competition... Capitalism without competition is not capitalism. That's the core engine of capitalism. I dunno man. You've got to do some more reading on economics before we can really discuss it.
    Amen brotha.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't know what to tell you man. That's just stupid talk. Every economist agrees that government regulation is necessary to preserve competition and force companies to take account of externalities. Nobody would argue that. What they do argue about is the extent to which the government should make them take account of externalities, but nobody argues that they should just ignore them, and certainly nobody in their right minds argues that the government doesn't need to take steps to preserve competition... Capitalism without competition is not capitalism. That's the core engine of capitalism. I dunno man. You've got to do some more reading on economics before we can really discuss it.
    Capitalism is naturally competitive. Regulations to perceive competitive forces are usually in response to results of government action in the past that restricted competition either on purpose or more than likely by accident.

    Every regulation cost money and when you have as many as we have they cost a lot of money with entire teams to make sure all are followed and to keep up with new ones down the pipe. That doesn't even mention the huge amount of cash it takes to comply with them all. All of this cost money and considering that almost all regulations affect small to large business it kills off competition very easily just by there existence alone. Btw, I used to be on such a team. Before you call someone stupid might want to know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by Henrin; 11-10-11 at 12:49 AM.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Capitalism is naturally competitive. Regulations to perceive competitive forces are usually in response to results of government action in the past that restricted competition either on purpose or more than likely by accident.

    Every regulation cost money and when you have as many as we have they cost a lot of money with entire teams to make sure all are followed and to keep up with new ones down the pipe. All of this cost money and considering that almost all regulations affect small to large business it kills off competition very easily just by there existence alone. Btw, I used to be on such a team. Before you call someone stupid might want to know what you are talking about.
    Very true. To much regulation is just as bad as to little. Where do we find the middle ground??? I am no economist but it must be possible?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Why dodge my question? What impact do you think those 80,000 regulations have on businesses, my friend?
    Depends what you mean by "businesses" I guess. Some businesses could certainly make more profits, for example, by using child labor or dumping toxic waste into lakes or selling food that will make you sick or by fixing prices with their competitors or whatever, but those things don't improve the economy overall, they make it much, much, worse for the economy overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Fascism is more than you state:

    Fascists advocate: a state-directed, regulated economy that is dedicated to the nation; the use and primacy of regulated private property and private enterprise contingent upon service to the nation or state;
    Economic policy really isn't a central part of fascism either way. There have been free market fascist states and there have been socialist fascist states. In general they tend to be more on the right economically, but not always. Of course socially they are hard right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Perhaps the world bank is not a good determinant? Perhaps they do not address the impact that 80,000 regulations have on business in the US.
    If the world bank isn't a good source for measuring how business friendly governments are I don't know who possibly would be... That's what they do, and they're rabidly anti-regulation... And yeah they did look at the regulatory environment. That's what the whole report is about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Government regulations do not preserve competition. They destroy competition. I believe you know this. I am sure that politicians and economists would agree that government has to regulate businesses. What else could they say?
    You just are not thinking about it in a nuanced enough way. "Regulations" aren't one big monolithic thing. Some regulations are good for competition some are bad. If the government said "only ACME products can sell widgets" that would obviously be bad for competition, but if they say "ACME can't collude with Walmart on prices", then that is good for competition. Every capitalist economist I've ever heard of agrees that government has to, at the very least, prevent monopoly and collusion.

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