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Thread: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I have seen no evidence of real world experience from you. You don't know the costs of running a business, starting up a business and yet act like an expert on business.
    Kiddo, I'm not trying to form an economic theory based on my own personal experiences... What kind of idiot would do that? That would be insanely stupid...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Here are the corporate tax rates around the world. The U.S. ranks second behind Japan

    Corporation tax rates around the world. How much do companies pay? | News | guardian.co.uk
    Yeah, if they actually paid that... But around 2/3 of companies actually pay no taxes at all. The system is so riddled with loopholes that they can pretty much evade taxes entirely or give some token sum. I'm betting you actually already knew that though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I am still waiting for you to define fair share in the form of taxes and fair share in the form of income for the various types of jobs in the labor force?
    Have you not been reading my posts at all? Pay attention! I don't think somebody should come in and say "hey, from now on fair salaries are everybody gets $60k/year" or something... I think the market should figure it out. But when the market fails to do that properly, we shouldn't just sit by and let the system grind down until the axle falls off, we should fix it.

    As for taxes, there obviously isn't like a fair tax rate table written on a stone tablet somewhere in the clouds. Optimal tax rates depend on a billion things. If the rich/poor gap gets wider, you want more progressive taxes. If it gets narrower, you want flatter taxes. If you are running a big deficit, you need higher taxes. If you are running a surplus you want lower taxes. If you need investment worse than you need business revenues, you make taxes flatter. If you need business revenues more badly than you need investment capital, you make taxes more progressive. Etc. This is policy making, not religious doctrine.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I'm not sure it is valid to state that employees are worth 97k of production, but only receive 44k in compensation.... but leave out all other expenses of the employer

    the difference between the 97k and the 44k is eaten up by a ton of expenses.
    Productivity means the value they create. So, like if you rent an office space for $1k/month and you work in it alone and you make $5k/month, your productivity is $4k.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    teamosil;1059942456]Kiddo, I'm not trying to form an economic theory based on my own personal experiences... What kind of idiot would do that? That would be insanely stupid...
    It might help if book smart street stupid individuals had a little more real life experience to form their theories.

    Yeah, if they actually paid that... But around 2/3 of companies actually pay no taxes at all. The system is so riddled with loopholes that they can pretty much evade taxes entirely or give some token sum. I'm betting you actually already knew that though...
    2/3 of what companies don't pay any taxes? Why is tax revenue such an issue to you? Do you realize that corporations pay more than Federa taxes and actually employ people that pay taxes? Interesting how far too may are always concerned about what those evil corporations pay but not the fact that loopholes exist in individual taxes as well where 47% of U.S. income earning households don't pay any Federal Income Taxes but that is never addressed. The problem today with far too many is they are worried more about how much someone else earns or pays in taxes vs how the tax dollars are being spent. spending is the problem at the Federal level and that is being ignored


    Have you not been reading my posts at all? Pay attention! I don't think somebody should come in and say "hey, from now on fair salaries are everybody gets $60k/year" or something... I think the market should figure it out. But when the market fails to do that properly, we shouldn't just sit by and let the system grind down until the axle falls off, we should fix it.
    Who is we? Who is qualified to tell a private business that has invested their money into a business what they should pay their employees?

    As for taxes, there obviously isn't like a fair tax rate table written on a stone tablet somewhere in the clouds. Optimal tax rates depend on a billion things. If the rich/poor gap gets wider, you want more progressive taxes. If it gets narrower, you want flatter taxes. If you are running a big deficit, you need higher taxes. If you are running a surplus you want lower taxes. If you need investment worse than you need business revenues, you make taxes flatter. If you need business revenues more badly than you need investment capital, you make taxes more progressive. Etc. This is policy making, not religious doctrine.
    Again you fail to address the problem which is spending and the distorted role of the Federal Govt vs the roles and responsibilities of the state. We currently have a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt. and a 14.9 trilion dollar debt all created because we spend too much and too many people expect too much from the govt. and aren't paying for it.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    It might help if book smart street stupid individuals had a little more real life experience to form their theories.
    Dude, it isn't remotely relevant, but like I said, I spent 12 years running entire departments in software companies... I guarantee you I've had more real world responsibility in the business world than you have even come close to. I've negotiated 10 million dollar deals, hired and fired tons of people, managed profits and losses for an entire department, managed departments both in start ups and companies with thousands of employees. Whatever this nonsense is you have in your head about how I'm "street stupid" or whatever is off the mark. But, again, how the hell is that relevant to economic theory? You honestly think one person's individual experiences would weigh as a major factor in a theory about how entire economies work? Besides, are you seriously arguing that you think capitalism got it wrong? Aren't you supposedly a conservative? Hence your name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    2/3 of what companies don't pay any taxes? Why is tax revenue such an issue to you?
    Kiddo, you're falling apart here... YOU are the one that brought up tax revenues. Remember? You were arguing that the reason business were not paying people what they're worth was because of taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Interesting how far too may are always concerned about what those evil corporations pay but not the fact that loopholes exist in individual taxes as well where 47% of U.S. income earning households don't pay any Federal Income Taxes but that is never addressed
    Are you kidding me? We address it over and over and over until we're blue in the face, but you guys just come back the next day pretending like you forgot what we said.

    It is true that 47% of people don't pay federal income taxes. Many of them, of course, are retired people, people who can't find work, etc. But that is only federal income taxes. Those are the only major progressive tax. They need to offset all the other taxes, most of which are steeply regressive. For example, FICA, sales, property, vehicle, etc, are all regressive. Most states have either a flat income tax or a income tax that is only nominally progressive. For example, a state might have a 5% income tax on the first $10k, and then 8% after that or whatever. So, federal income taxes have to counteract that somewhat. They can't hit up the same people that are getting hit the hardest by the other taxes, and who have the least to spare at the same time.

    Never addressed... I bet I could find 5,000 posts on this forum explaining that. And guess what else, I bet that tomorrow you'll be on another thread pretending not to understand that again and claiming nobody ever explained it to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Who is we? Who is qualified to tell a private business that has invested their money into a business what they should pay their employees?
    The people of the United States of course. We decide the rules we want in our society. When something in our society breaks down, we're responsible for fixing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Again you fail to address the problem which is spending and the distorted role of the Federal Govt vs the roles and responsibilities of the state. We currently have a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt. and a 14.9 trilion dollar debt all created because we spend too much and too many people expect too much from the govt. and aren't paying for it.
    Ok, you're just going off in a whole new direction now... You're kind of scatterbrained today...

    We have deficit because we spend more than we pay for. If we want to fix that realistically we need to change both. We need to spend less and pay more. But neither of those things are politically popular... Generally speaking the Democrats seem ready to act on both, but the Republicans are still refusing to address taxation. Regardless though, that has nothing to do with the problem of businesses not paying people what they're worth...
    Last edited by teamosil; 11-09-11 at 11:52 PM.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Dude, it isn't remotely relevant, but like I said, I spent 12 years running entire departments in software companies... I guarantee you I've had more real world responsibility in the business world than you have even come close to. I've negotiated 10 million dollar deals, hired and fired tons of people, managed profits and losses for an entire department, managed departments both in start ups and companies with thousands of employees. Whatever this nonsense is you have in your head about how I'm "street stupid" or whatever is off the mark. But, again, how the hell is that relevant to economic theory? You honestly think one person's individual experiences would weigh as a major factor in a theory about how entire economies work? Besides, are you seriously arguing that you think capitalism got it wrong? Aren't you supposedly a conservative? Hence your name?



    Kiddo, you're falling apart here... YOU are the one that brought up tax revenues. Remember? You were arguing that the reason business were not paying people what they're worth was because of taxes?



    Are you kidding me? We address it over and over and over until we're blue in the face, but you guys just come back the next day pretending like you forgot what we said.

    It is true that 47% of people don't pay federal income taxes. Many of them, of course, are retired people, people who can't find work, etc. But that is only federal income taxes. Those are the only major progressive tax. They need to offset all the other taxes, most of which are steeply regressive. For example, FICA, sales, property, vehicle, etc, are all regressive. Most states have either a flat income tax or a income tax that is only nominally progressive. For example, a state might have a 5% income tax on the first $10k, and then 8% after that or whatever. So, federal income taxes have to counteract that somewhat. They can't hit up the same people that are getting hit the hardest by the other taxes, and who have the least to spare at the same time.

    Never addressed... I bet I could find 5,000 posts on this forum explaining that. And guess what else, I bet that tomorrow you'll be on another thread pretending not to understand that again and claiming nobody ever explained it to you.



    The people of the United States of course. We decide the rules we want in our society. When something in our society breaks down, we're responsible for fixing it.



    Ok, you're just going off in a whole new direction now... You're kind of scatterbrained today...

    We have deficit because we spend more than we pay for. If we want to fix that realistically we need to change both. We need to spend less and pay more. But neither of those things are politically popular... Generally speaking the Democrats seem ready to act on both, but the Republicans are still refusing to address taxation. Regardless though, that has nothing to do with the problem of businesses not paying people what they're worth...
    "Dude" you don't have a clue, I spent 35 years in the business world and ran a 200 million dollar a year business. Get back to me when you can meet that qualification.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    "Dude" you don't have a clue, I spent 35 years in the business world and ran a 200 million dollar a year business. Get back to me when you can meet that qualification.
    get back to us when you wake up from that dream
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    "Dude" you don't have a clue, I spent 35 years in the business world and ran a 200 million dollar a year business. Get back to me when you can meet that qualification.
    LOL. Yeah, you're a CEO of a company with $200m/year in revenues, but you don't know basics about how economics work. Turtledude graduated from a top 5 law school, but can't explain the basics of constitutional law. Funny how that keeps happening on the internet.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    We generally have not just much lower corporate taxes than most countries and much less onerous regulations.
    What impact do the 80,000 regulations published at the Federal level have on businesses? And are there any other nations who regulate their businesses so heavily? Has the United States become fascist?

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Government has a firm duty to regulate the market to ensure competition. That is something every economist acknowledges, from the inventor of capitalism Adam Smith on down to the most right wing modern day economists, but somehow this notion that the perfect market is one with no government interference still rages on amongst the non-economically inclined members of the right.
    "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"
    "We have to destroy capitalism in order to save it"
    The Mahablog Destroying Capitalism to Save It

    Obama: It Became Necessary to Destroy the Economy to Save it | Common Dreams

    Governments regulate because it gives them power. No other reason.
    Progressivism is the enemy.
    Last edited by Misterveritis; 11-10-11 at 12:23 AM.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    What impact do the 80,000 regulations published at the Federal level have on businesses? And are there any other nations who regulate their businesses so heavily?
    The (rabidly anti-regulation) world bank publishes a report each year about the most "business friendly" countries. The US ranked 4th last year. The countries ahead of us are all very small. Of the significant economies, we're clearly the most pro-business.

    Doing Business in United States - World Bank Group

    So I guess your pretty far off base with that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Has the United States become fascist?
    Fascist? Regulating business isn't fascist... Fascism doesn't really have a clear economic policy. The most notable fascist government- Nazi Germany- was on the free market end of things. What fascism means is a government that is socially repressive, typically combined with nationalism or racism.

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