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Thread: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The median productivity for an American worker is an outstanding $97k/year. The median total compensation is only $44k. If you honestly don't see why that is a problem I really don't know what to tell you. Now, you might have some other name for it than "stealing". That's fine, you can call it whatever you want. But the important thing is that it is clearly a serious problem whatever you call it. That's costing you far, far, more than all your taxes combined at this point. Probably 3-5 times as much depending on your situation.
    who do you think should determine the wages for an employee? What purpose do the OWS crowd serve and don't they have better use of their time? What I see as a problem is the entitlement mentality held by far too many and that is being promoted by iiberalism. I am waiting for someone to define what fair share is for the rich to pay as well as what is the fair share for lower income workers to pay. While your at it how about defining what a McDonald's worker should pay or any other lower educated worker with nothing but their time invested in the business?

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    who do you think should determine the wages for an employee?
    We should be asking why the market isn't doing it properly. In theory, in a free market, companies are supposed to be competing over employees. Each employer should be offering a bit more than the others to get the better resources, and back and forth, until they are all paying the employees almost as much as the value they create. That's the core idea of capitalism- the invisible hand. But that seems to have broken down in the modern US. They're paying less than half of what employees are worth and they're actually cutting compensation when in theory they should be raising it.

    So, something is broken. I can't honestly tell you that I know what it is. A suspect would be the incredible concentration of many of the main markets stifling competition. De-regulation of anti-competitive practices certainly doesn't help. Employment policies that create significant transaction costs for people considering changing jobs (like starting over at the bottom rung, losing stock options, etc) are probably part of it.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    teamosil;1059942235]We should be asking why the market isn't doing it properly. In theory, in a free market, companies are supposed to be competing over employees. Each employer should be offering a bit more than the others to get the better resources, and back and forth, until they are all paying the employees almost as much as the value they create. That's the core idea of capitalism- the invisible hand. But that seems to have broken down in the modern US. They're paying less than half of what employees are worth and they're actually cutting compensation when in theory they should be raising it.
    A true free market without massive Federal and liberal intervention would but you dodge the point and ignore the costs forced upon business by the govt. Obviously many liberals here have never run a business and never invested their own income into a business which means they are the last one paid. You claim they are paying less than half of what the employee is worth so explain how you came up with how much an employee is worth? What makes you an expert on employee value?

    So, something is broken. I can't honestly tell you that I know what it is. A suspect would be the incredible concentration of many of the main markets stifling competition. De-regulation of anti-competitive practices certainly doesn't help. Employment policies that create significant transaction costs for people considering changing jobs (like starting over at the bottom rung, losing stock options, etc) are probably part of it.
    One thing great about this country is the ability for anyone to start their own business. What I have found however is that many liberals who are experts on the private sector have never started or run their own business. It would seem to me that any liberal who really wants to help people would start a business and pay them what they know they are worth and see how that works out for them

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    It's weird to me that you seem to be holding a position passionately that you aren't able to come up with any arguments to defend. Maybe that means you got something wrong, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    A true free market without massive Federal and liberal intervention would but you dodge the point and ignore the costs forced upon business by the govt.
    What are you talking about? The corporate income taxes that only 1 in 3 businesses pay at all? That make up like 5% of our federal revenues? We could hardly be giving businesses a freer ride than we are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You claim they are paying less than half of what the employee is worth so explain how you came up with how much an employee is worth? What makes you an expert on employee value?
    Come on man. Worker productivity isn't something I cam up with or that I calculated... Obviously you know that, right? It's a standard economic measure. The BLS publishes the numbers every quarter...

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's weird to me that you seem to be holding a position passionately that you aren't able to come up with any arguments to defend. Maybe that means you got something wrong, no?



    What are you talking about? The corporate income taxes that only 1 in 3 businesses pay at all? That make up like 5% of our federal revenues? We could hardly be giving businesses a freer ride than we are...



    Come on man. Worker productivity isn't something I cam up with or that I calculated... Obviously you know that, right? It's a standard economic measure. The BLS publishes the numbers every quarter...
    What does any of that have to do with the question as to the value of an employee and you starting your own business so that you can pay them what you think they are worth. Think they will be happy with the amount you decide?

    Worker productivity varies by industry and value of the product they produce. Would you value someone who works for a dry cleaner the same as someone working in a techical field?

    Would love to talk to you about taxes but that is irrelevant to this discussion. There are many more costs to business than taxes just like there a millions more of small businesses than those evil corporations you want to demonize

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What does any of that have to do with the question as to the value of an employee and you starting your own business so that you can pay them what you think they are worth. Think they will be happy with the amount you decide?
    That's the point- we aren't supposed to have to rely on businesses being charitable. The market is supposed to ensure that they're paying fairly through competition. When the market is working properly, that is exactly what it does do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Worker productivity varies by industry and value of the product they produce. Would you value someone who works for a dry cleaner the same as someone working in a techical field?
    Not sure how you think that relates to what we're talking about. The median compensation is less than half the median productivity. Maybe you can explain your argument more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Would love to talk to you about taxes but that is irrelevant to this discussion. There are many more costs to business than taxes just like there a millions more of small businesses than those evil corporations you want to demonize
    Feel free to list them off. We generally have not just much lower corporate taxes than most countries and much less onerous regulations. And in fact, in most those countries with higher taxes and more regulations employers actually do pay much closer to the productivity of their workers. So "too many taxes and too much regulation" doesn't seem to fly as an explanation. In fact, it's probably too little regulation. The market only works right when the conditions are right. If we let competition break down, the market breaks down and this is what happens.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    teamosil;1059942333]That's the point- we aren't supposed to have to rely on businesses being charitable. The market is supposed to ensure that they're paying fairly through competition. When the market is working properly, that is exactly what it does do.
    Do you know what the profit margin is for most businesses especially those evil companies are? Competition always works when allowed to work. Right now the govt. is preventing competition from working by over regulations and high taxes which is putting business out of business. You believe we have a 9.1% unemployment rate in this country? Business owners that have gone out of business aren't counted and get no compensation.


    Not sure how you think that relates to what we're talking about. The median compensation is less than half the median productivity. Maybe you can explain your argument more?
    We were taking about the value of people that you tie to productivity. That is the book talking to you and not the real world thus my statement regarding you starting your own business so you can apply your theory and book smarts to the real world.

    Feel free to list them off. We generally have not just much lower corporate taxes than most countries and much less onerous regulations. And in fact, in most those countries with higher taxes and more regulations employers actually do pay much closer to the productivity of their workers. So "too many taxes and too much regulation" doesn't seem to fly as an explanation. In fact, it's probably too little regulation. The market only works right when the conditions are right. If we let competition break down, the market breaks down and this is what happens.
    Not sure where you get your information on corporate taxes but you made the claim so prove it. Most countries have higher user taxes than we have including gasoline taxes to fund their socialist agenda. I am waiting for some of the liberal elites to start and run their own business and put their theories into practice. Please explain your experience in working in the real world so as to give credibility to a statement that market ony works when the conditions are right. What conditions and does human behavior have any impact on business?

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Competition always works when allowed to work.
    No, that just isn't true. No economist would defend that statement. IMO that is one of the points where many conservatives' thinking about economics goes off the rails. It's very much the opposite. Government has a firm duty to regulate the market to ensure competition. That is something every economist acknowledges, from the inventor of capitalism Adam Smith on down to the most right wing modern day economists, but somehow this notion that the perfect market is one with no government interference still rages on amongst the non-economically inclined members of the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    We were taking about the value of people that you tie to productivity. That is the book talking to you and not the real world thus my statement regarding you starting your own business so you can apply your theory and book smarts to the real world.
    Maybe you aren't clear on what productivity is? Look it up and come back if you still think there is something I'm missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Not sure where you get your information on corporate taxes but you made the claim so prove it. Most countries have higher user taxes than we have including gasoline taxes to fund their socialist agenda. I am waiting for some of the liberal elites to start and run their own business and put their theories into practice.
    Probably the most frequently cited reference measuring how business friendly countries are would be the world bank's index. They rank the US as the 4th most pro-business country in the world.

    Doing Business in United States - World Bank Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Please explain your experience in working in the real world so as to give credibility to a statement that market ony works when the conditions are right. What conditions and does human behavior have any impact on business?
    Dude, I didn't invent capitalism. This isn't my theory. This is the theory of the economies of virtually all first world countries... It's foundational to virtually all economic theories... You think that like if I managed a Dairy Queen for 6 months once capitalism is a valid theory, but if I didn't, capitalism is not a valid theory?

    Regardless, just for the fun of it, I've worked in tech mostly. I managed the professional services departments in a few different software companies. Then I got sick of it after about 12 years and now I'm in law school.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    I'm not sure it is valid to state that employees are worth 97k of production, but only receive 44k in compensation.... but leave out all other expenses of the employer

    the difference between the 97k and the 44k is eaten up by a ton of expenses.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, that just isn't true. No economist would defend that statement. IMO that is one of the points where many conservatives' thinking about economics goes off the rails. It's very much the opposite. Government has a firm duty to regulate the market to ensure competition. That is something every economist acknowledges, from the inventor of capitalism Adam Smith on down to the most right wing modern day economists, but somehow this notion that the perfect market is one with no government interference still rages on amongst the non-economically inclined members of the right.



    Maybe you aren't clear on what productivity is? Look it up and come back if you still think there is something I'm missing.



    Probably the most frequently cited reference measuring how business friendly countries are would be the world bank's index. They rank the US as the 4th most pro-business country in the world.

    Doing Business in United States - World Bank Group



    Dude, I didn't invent capitalism. This isn't my theory. This is the theory of the economies of virtually all first world countries... It's foundational to virtually all economic theories... You think that like if I managed a Dairy Queen for 6 months once capitalism is a valid theory, but if I didn't, capitalism is not a valid theory?

    Regardless, just for the fun of it, I've worked in tech mostly. I managed the professional services departments in a few different software companies. Then I got sick of it after about 12 years and now I'm in law school.
    I have seen no evidence of real world experience from you. You don't know the costs of running a business, starting up a business and yet act like an expert on business. Here are the corporate tax rates around the world. The U.S. ranks second behind Japan

    Corporation tax rates around the world. How much do companies pay? | News | guardian.co.uk

    I am still waiting for you to define fair share in the form of taxes and fair share in the form of income for the various types of jobs in the labor force?

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