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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If people were to become socialist simply to make people miserable, then fundamentally they would have to accept a point of view that is not socialist since they would be trying to spread misery by using socialism (which they would have to view as negative). This is just plain absurd to think people would want to do this.
    I think you are assuming they give a crap about the greater good. in the meantime, i can alleviate my misery by taking from others.

    There is nothing new under the sun.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Is this what the protesters have been asking for? Source for this claim?
    You're damned right they are, and more.

    Here they are from their own website....

    Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

    Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

    Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

    Demand four: Free college education.

    Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

    Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

    Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

    Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

    Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

    Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

    Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

    Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

    Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

    These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

    Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum
    Quite the list of Marx laden, BS is it not?

    j-mac
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    as I recall, mortgage debt is about the size of the US economy.

    so....these people are basically saying go back to subsistence farming, but at the same time insisting that subsistence farming will make us all fabulously wealthy...

    i wonder if the "no debt" idea is just a spin-off of the no-student-debt driver, or everyone remembering how, like, totally awesome, like, that movie was, with Brad Pitt, and stuff.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-10-11 at 10:31 AM.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I've thought about that too... is this the 1% of 1% of the socialist / Marxists wannabes joined by Unions to simply make everyone as miserable and idiotic as they are or is this a real movement with a point? So far, the jury is out on that one.
    First, I have to amend my previous statement by injecting "... joined by Union support", not the Unions. I've actually seen very little AFL-CIO or SEIU members participation. The Unions are at least lending some support via PR releases, I haven't really seen much actual participation by millions of the memberships.


    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If people were to become socialist simply to make people miserable, then fundamentally they would have to accept a point of view that is not socialist since they would be trying to spread misery by using socialism (which they would have to view as negative). This is just plain absurd to think people would want to do this.
    I would tend to agree, therefore the premise that socialism = misery is probably not a conscious thought or effort, those who are pushing that point of view must therefore believe that the socialist changes they are calling for are actually GOOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    More likely, they believe that their way is the way to the greater good.
    They probably believe a lot of things... in actuality we don't really know what they believe as there isn't a coherent or cohesive view. I've found the following sites with all sorts of things from demands to "calls to action".


    1.) Occupy Wall Street
    A Modest Call to Action on this September 17th | OccupyWallSt.org

    And so we call on people to act

    1. We call for protests to remain active in the cities. Those already there, to grow, to organize, to raise consciousnesses, for those cities where there are no protests, for protests to organize and disrupt the system.
    2. We call for workers to not only strike, but seize their workplaces collectively, and to organize them democratically. We call for students and teachers to act together, to teach democracy, not merely the teachers to the students, but the students to the teachers. To seize the classrooms and free minds together.
    3. We call for the unemployed to volunteer, to learn, to teach, to use what skills they have to support themselves as part of the revolting people as a community.
    4. We call for the organization of people's assemblies in every city, every public square, every township.
    5. We call for the seizure and use of abandoned buildings, of abandoned land, of every property seized and abandoned by speculators, for the people, for every group that will organize them.

    We call for a revolution of the mind as well as the body politic.
    2.) AFL-CIO Statement
    Statement by AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka On Occupy Wall Street


    As we did when we marched on Wall Street last year, working people call on corporations, big banks, and the financial industry to do their part to create good jobs, stop foreclosures and pay their fair share of taxes.
    Wall Street and corporate America must invest in America: Big corporations should invest some of the $2 trillion in cash they have on hand, and use it to create good jobs. And the banks themselves should be making credit more accessible to small businesses, instead of parking almost $1 trillion at the Federal Reserve.
    Stop foreclosures: Banks should write down the 14 million mortgages that are underwater and stop the more than 10 million pending foreclosures to stop the downward spiral of our housing markets and inject more than $70 billion into our economy.
    Fund education and jobs by taxing financial speculation: A tiny tax on financial transactions could raise hundreds of billions in revenue that could fund education and create jobs rebuilding our country. And it would discourage speculation and encourage long term investment.
    We will open our union halls and community centers as well as our arms and our hearts to those with the courage to stand up and demand a better America.

    3.) Occupy Wall Street (un-official demands)

    Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

    Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
    Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
    Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
    Demand four: Free college education.
    Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
    Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
    Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.
    Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
    Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
    Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
    Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
    Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
    Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
    These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.
    4.) Occupy Wall Street (official demands)
    Occupy Wall Street - Official Demands - coupmedia.org


    Repeal of the patriot act
    Eleimate "Personhood" legal status for corporations
    Forced acquisition of the federal reserve for 1 billion dollars
    Repeal the 16th amendment
    Re-investigate the attacks of 9-11-2001
    What to name the Occupy Wall Street demands
    CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION
    End the War On Drugs
    Require all Corporations to have Labour Representatives on Company Boards
    National Repeal of Capital Punishment
    Nationalize Health Care
    Free education Kindergarten through college
    CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT
    Outlaw flash trading
    End Gender Discrimination - Equal Pay for Women
    Office of the Citizen
    The United States must sign and ratify all human rights agreements with all other countries
    USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS
    restore true democracy to the government
    Environmental Responsibility Reform
    Repeal REX-84 - Concerning Martial Law
    Creat A Board of Officers to Manage the Demands
    Real Health Care Reform
    CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION
    CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION
    CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS
    CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation"
    Lots of these things can be claimed as "for the common good", I'm sure there are extremists who would, given the chance, change our religions, our political systems, our outlooks, our freedoms (or lack thereof) all for what THEY consider "the common good".
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    nope. screw everyone equally - if you fail, it's no ones' fault or responsibility but your own.

    No Bailouts. For corporate or union bigwigs alike.




    as for "the system" breaking in the 80s - no "system" broke. The American People got stupid. we went from a 10% savings rate to a negative savings rate in that time period - because we got stupid (and shortsighted). as for the "no gains for those below" - again, that's on you. I work hard, educate myself on the side, and come from little enough - and I will likely retire a multimillionaire; and be making above the median wage before I'm 35.
    GOT STUPID? Maybe their was a stupid virus going around

    the boomers spent their high-earning years taking out loans on their McMansions that they bought with adjustable rate mortgages in order to buy the latest plasma or take an extra vacation, and now they want to blame their problems on "the system".
    Do you think you may be sterotyping just a little, btw what age brackett do you consider boomers in?

    Just a question please don't be upset, Have you ever considered anger management? Your parents are they boomers? Where you picked on in school? Like I said I am just trying to under stand your apparent hatred. Relax sit back and take a few deep breaths

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post

    GOT STUPID? Maybe their was a stupid virus going around
    It's a colorful euphemism to describe the malaise of our society and forgetting what is fiscally important both as a nation and individually.



    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Just a question please don't be upset, Have you ever considered anger management?
    Just my 2 cents but he doesn't seem particularly angry - it may be that your perception is being modified by the written word and the in formalness of a political forum posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Your parents are they boomers? Where you picked on in school? Like I said I am just trying to under stand your apparent hatred. Relax sit back and take a few deep breaths
    Again... you're interpretation seems lost in translation.
    Last edited by Ockham; 10-10-11 at 10:39 AM.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    GOT STUPID? Maybe their was a stupid virus going around
    no; just a generation of people taking the reins who had decided to buy into instant gratification as a personal, governing, and financial philosophy.

    Do you think you may be sterotyping just a little, btw what age brackett do you consider boomers in?
    Boomers started roughly in 1945, and continued roughly getting born into the early 60's. IOW, the demographic who just wasted their peak earning years, and has very little saved for retirement, but is about to destroy the entitlement system designed to be a safety net for such scenarios.

    Just a question please don't be upset, Have you ever considered anger management? Your parents are they boomers? Where you picked on in school? Like I said I am just trying to under stand your apparent hatred. Relax sit back and take a few deep breaths
    hatred? nah, my hatred is reserved for those who specifically rate it. I just don't respect the boomers very much - they took a great thing and have generally F*&('d up everything they touched. my folks are boomers - and are smarter than most of the rest of their generation. never divorced, lived beneath their means, and taught me to do likewise.

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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    After reading the various threads on this same subject here, and paying special attention to the vitriolic responses from those on the right side of the political spectrum, two dominant themes appear

    1) this is a new and different type of protest that seems to defy leadership, a core goal, and adopts methods and tactics far different than many others we are use to seeing. Because of that his confuses many and even angers them since it is the 'shock of the new' and it bewilders and confuses them..... and they don't like that one bit.

    2) The intensity and anger that so many right wing posters have displayed obsessing over these rather minor events is entirely due to their adoration of capitalism and the corporatists who control Wall Street and our economic system and the threat they perceive from a bunch of unwashed modern hippies carrying around Mao's little red book, the bio of Leon Trotsky and a bomb making manual from August Spies.. or so they would have us believe. They see their meal ticket threatened and - for the first time in a longtime - see protest against what they hold dear. Many on the right are simply sycophants of corporatism and the wealthy and they will do their best to defend their masters as a way of self protection. It is the first instinct of any organism to protect itself and the toadies of capitalism are responding in knee jerk fashion.
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    I think their focus is so broad as to have no focus at all beyond disruption.

    Personally, I think they should all focus on Big Bank Foreclosure Procedures. People lose their homes for various reasons. They may have lost their jobs; maybe their interest rate reset and, because their home isn't worth what they paid for it, they can't refinance; maybe they've just decided, "Ya' know what? I owe $300,000 on my home, and it's only worth $250,000. I'm going to walk away."

    There's lots of places to put blame for the fact that most people lost 25% of the value of their homes; but one of those places is definitely Wall Street. And in no small measure.

    So. How do the banks handle people whose mortgages are delinquent? They foreclose. Oh, they may "do a work out" with some of them; but those are far and few between. In most instances, they begin foreclosure proceedings immedately. In most states, foreclosure can take a year or more. The people living in the homes stop paying their mortgage and resign themselves to the fact that they're going to be evicted down the road...so they live there rent-free. They don't care anymore because the house they bought three years ago for $300,000 is only worth $250,000 today. When they're forced to move, many of them strip the house of the light fixtures, appliances, plumbing fixtures...heck, some of them even take the hot water tank and air conditioner. And, of course, they stop taking care of the home because, frankly, who gives a damn anymore? And eventually, after a year or so, they move out.

    When the foreclosure proceedings are completed, the bank hires contractors to put the house back into saleable condition -- they're easily dropping $15-$20,000 into repairs. And thousands into attorneys' fees, etc. They begin paying the real estate taxes and other expenses (like heat/lawncare, etc.) on the homes immediately....paying off the arrearage as well as current taxes. Then they put these distressed homes on the market, flooding the market and driving prices down even further. Eventually, maybe a year later, after easily laying out 50,000 or more, they sell the home for $225,000.

    Had they offered the original owner forgiveness on $50,000 of their debt, the bank would have saved money, the real estate market wouldn't be flooded with distressed properties, real estate would stabilize, a family wouldn't have their credit trashed and have gone through the terrible process of losing their home.

    We bailed out the banks big-time. So they could screw distressed homeowners with impunity.

    Demonstrate on that. And, one more thing -- demonstrate against our government for not holding even one of these jamokes responsible for this debacle.
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    After reading the various threads on this same subject here, and paying special attention to the vitriolic responses from those on the right side of the political spectrum, two dominant themes appear

    1) this is a new and different type of protest that seems to defy leadership, a core goal, and adopts methods and tactics far different than many others we are use to seeing. Because of that his confuses many and even angers them since it is the 'shock of the new' and it bewilders and confuses them..... and they don't like that one bit.
    It's very similar to the 1960's with one exception - the civil rights movement was very focused and literal in their wants and needs. This current protest is disjointed, disorganized and incoherent. It's true, I do like a clear focus --- call me crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    2) The intensity and anger that so many right wing posters have displayed obsessing over these rather minor events is entirely due to their adoration of capitalism and the corporatists who control Wall Street and our economic system and the threat they perceive from a bunch of unwashed modern hippies carrying around Mao's little red book, the bio of Leon Trotsky and a bomb making manual from August Spies.. or so they would have us believe. They see their meal ticket threatened and - for the first time in a longtime - see protest against what they hold dear. Many on the right are simply sycophants of corporatism and the wealthy and they will do their best to defend their masters as a way of self protection. It is the first instinct of any organism to protect itself and the toadies of capitalism are responding in knee jerk fashion.
    I'm not wealthy and your ad hominem ladened rants is very entertaining, albeit partisan and ignorant. I admit, I do like corporatism I think it's the best system around (Your Mao nonsense seems to undercut how China has embraced, in a modern sense, capitalism), but if this OWS movement is going to be anything other than professional protesters demanding socialistic or as you say, Maoist or Trotsky-ist policy, they will sooner or later either have to temper their message and make it clearer, or become irrelevant and get dismiss
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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