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Thread: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

  1. #251
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If a little bit taking from the top creates more wealth for everyone (and more total wealth for society as a whole), then its a good thing
    of course-stealing from some to slake the envy of others is the liberal mantra but all that does is make rich dem politicians richer because people like you will worship them and give them votes for doing that

    giving the slothful and unproductive money they didn't earn tends to cause them to vote for those who give them handouts but really doesn't motivate them to become productive

    In fact it often deters that



  2. #252
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    of course-stealing from some to slake the envy of others is the liberal mantra but all that does is make rich dem politicians richer because people like you will worship them and give them votes for doing that

    giving the slothful and unproductive money they didn't earn tends to cause them to vote for those who give them handouts but really doesn't motivate them to become productive

    In fact it often deters that
    Its not about envy, its about how to make society be as functional, wealthy, and as efficient as possible, given the constraints of human nature.

    This is a question of engineering more than it is about anything else.

    Any good engineer will compensate for flawed materials if that is what they have to work with. One can complaint that x steel is not as good as y steel, but if x steel is what they got, they find a way to make it work. Human nature is flawed, so we must account for it and build a system that works within those flaws.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 10-07-11 at 11:03 AM.

  3. #253
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Its not about envy, its about how to make society be as functional, wealthy, and as efficient as possible, given the constraints of human nature.

    This is a question of engineering more than it is about anything else.
    well the last 50 years has been marked with massive income redistribution and it sure hasn't done much good

    SYL



  4. #254
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well the last 50 years has been marked with massive income redistribution and it sure hasn't done much good

    SYL
    As a society, we have built more wealth and advanced more quickly than at any other time in human history over the last 50 years.

  5. #255
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    There is nothing wrong with corporations, but there is something very wrong with a lack of social responsibility.
    "Lack of social responsibility" according to whom?

    How much do major U.S. corporations donate to charity, Mega? Most people don't even know the number. I've looked up some stats, and it's pretty impressive. Example...Pfizer (in 2004) gave 21% of its income to charity; they have programs specially designed for people who can't afford to pay for their medicine; they employ 110,000 people; and, at least here in the US, I think it's safe to assume these are damn good jobs. WalMart, in 2010, announced plans to donate $250 million in cash and $1.75 billion worth of food over the next five years to fight hunger in the United States. In 2009 113 companies donated cash totalling over $4.9 billion. Goldman Sachs increased its giving by 353% in 2010, to $315.4 million; other financials followed suit as their profits began to rebound. Citigroup -- $100 million in cash. Pfizer topped the list in 2010, giving more than $3 billion in cash and products (and, btw,l Pfizer is the largest researcher of medicines on planet earth); Oracle $2.3 billion; Merck $1.2 billion; Wells Fargo $219-million; and these numbers I'm throwing out are just the tip of the iceburg.

    Big Businesses Won

    Big bad WalMart has brought affordable goods to rural areas that were being gouged by local shopkeepers. For years, Chicago politicians blocked WalMart's store on the south side in support of unions who were determined to bring WalMart employees into their fold. This is an area where people have to drive 15-20 miles for a chain store and affordable prices. And fresh produce. Yes, in Chicago. The community clamored for the store....for the 400 jobs...for the cost-savings WalMart would allow And finally the community won.

    Do the CEOs of these companies make a lot of money? Yeppers. But if the guy who heads the largest medicinal research company in the world isn't worth $13.7 million (in '09), then tell me how A Rod is worth $27.5 million; Tiger Woods $110 million; in 2004, Payton Manning received the largest signing bonus in sports history: $34.5 million; his yearly income for ten years? $42 million.

    Maybe these demonstrators should be at playing fields protesting those salaries.

    Capitalism is a wonderful thing...
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  6. #256
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    in my opinion, the 99 percenters are concerned about this disparity and that it is widening since the financial meltdown:
    Attachment 67116490
    These same types of people have been protesting long before these current disparities came about and will still be protesting for their "fair share" even after a more reasonable distribution because they want something for nothing. They want it for simply living a breathing. They will never be satisfied.

  7. #257
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    ..........
    you kinda posted a little... weird, but i'll try to address what seemed to be your key points.

    Gallup: Seniors Most Favorable to Ryan Budget

    I have siblings on Medicaid. roughly a quarter of the uninsured qualify for Medicaid - including 69% of uninsured children. Another 43% have incomes above 250% of the poverty line - 55K for a family of 4. the CBO reports that roughly 60% of them are under the age of 35, and 86% report that they are in good or excellent health; many can probably be assumed to be uninsured by choice.

    with the large job losses of the current recession, obviously, many have lost their insurance because they have lost their employment. which is argument #1,487 for making health insurance a portable individual market rather than employer-provided.

    I currently live abroad as well (Japan), courtesy of the USMC. My experiences thus far with government healthcare have been atrocious. Waiting times are indeed much higher in UHC nations, and care is indeed much less available. for example, in Canada, the total median waiting time for patients between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, increased to 18.3 weeks from 17.8 weeks observed in 2006, and the median waiting time period for an MRI was 10.1 weeks. In Britain, you can wait around 10 months to start getting treated after you are diagnosed with cancer. It seems this helps especially to keep healthcare costs down with respect to lung and prostrate cancer patients, as a higher percentage of them die in the meantime, thereby saving the state the expense. Incidentally, they don't have a death panel. Instead, they have the Orwellian-named N.I.C.E., which serves the same function:

    ...A woman dying of breast cancer has been denied the only treatment which could prolong her life because the NHS deems it too expensive....
    generally speaking, if you get cancer, you want to get as far away from a UHC system as possible.

  8. #258
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    "Lack of social responsibility" according to whom?

    How much do major U.S. corporations donate to charity, Mega? Most people don't even know the number. I've looked up some stats, and it's pretty impressive. Example...Pfizer (in 2004) gave 21% of its income to charity; they have programs specially designed for people who can't afford to pay for their medicine; they employ 110,000 people; and, at least here in the US, I think it's safe to assume these are damn good jobs. WalMart, in 2010, announced plans to donate $250 million in cash and $1.75 billion worth of food over the next five years to fight hunger in the United States. In 2009 113 companies donated cash totalling over $4.9 billion. Goldman Sachs increased its giving by 353% in 2010, to $315.4 million; other financials followed suit as their profits began to rebound. Citigroup -- $100 million in cash. Pfizer topped the list in 2010, giving more than $3 billion in cash and products (and, btw,l Pfizer is the largest researcher of medicines on planet earth); Oracle $2.3 billion; Merck $1.2 billion; Wells Fargo $219-million; and these numbers I'm throwing out are just the tip of the iceburg.

    Big Businesses Won

    Big bad WalMart has brought affordable goods to rural areas that were being gouged by local shopkeepers. For years, Chicago politicians blocked WalMart's store on the south side in support of unions who were determined to bring WalMart employees into their fold. This is an area where people have to drive 15-20 miles for a chain store and affordable prices. And fresh produce. Yes, in Chicago. The community clamored for the store....for the 400 jobs...for the cost-savings WalMart would allow And finally the community won.

    Do the CEOs of these companies make a lot of money? Yeppers. But if the guy who heads the largest medicinal research company in the world isn't worth $13.7 million (in '09), then tell me how A Rod is worth $27.5 million; Tiger Woods $110 million; in 2004, Payton Manning received the largest signing bonus in sports history: $34.5 million; his yearly income for ten years? $42 million.

    Maybe these demonstrators should be at playing fields protesting those salaries.

    Capitalism is a wonderful thing...
    And that certainly helps, but when people are opposing the very infrastructure that makes this country great, such as public schooling, our retirement system, necessary changes to our health system, and other things that allow people to focus on what makes them successful as opposed to just getting by day to day, they are not performing their responsibilities.

  9. #259
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    "Lack of social responsibility" according to whom?

    How much do major U.S. corporations donate to charity, Mega? Most people don't even know the number. I've looked up some stats, and it's pretty impressive. Example...Pfizer (in 2004) gave 21% of its income to charity; they have programs specially designed for people who can't afford to pay for their medicine; they employ 110,000 people; and, at least here in the US, I think it's safe to assume these are damn good jobs. WalMart, in 2010, announced plans to donate $250 million in cash and $1.75 billion worth of food over the next five years to fight hunger in the United States. In 2009 113 companies donated cash totalling over $4.9 billion. Goldman Sachs increased its giving by 353% in 2010, to $315.4 million; other financials followed suit as their profits began to rebound. Citigroup -- $100 million in cash. Pfizer topped the list in 2010, giving more than $3 billion in cash and products (and, btw,l Pfizer is the largest researcher of medicines on planet earth); Oracle $2.3 billion; Merck $1.2 billion; Wells Fargo $219-million; and these numbers I'm throwing out are just the tip of the iceburg.

    Big Businesses Won

    Big bad WalMart has brought affordable goods to rural areas that were being gouged by local shopkeepers. For years, Chicago politicians blocked WalMart's store on the south side in support of unions who were determined to bring WalMart employees into their fold. This is an area where people have to drive 15-20 miles for a chain store and affordable prices. And fresh produce. Yes, in Chicago. The community clamored for the store....for the 400 jobs...for the cost-savings WalMart would allow And finally the community won.

    Do the CEOs of these companies make a lot of money? Yeppers. But if the guy who heads the largest medicinal research company in the world isn't worth $13.7 million (in '09), then tell me how A Rod is worth $27.5 million; Tiger Woods $110 million; in 2004, Payton Manning received the largest signing bonus in sports history: $34.5 million; his yearly income for ten years? $42 million.

    Maybe these demonstrators should be at playing fields protesting those salaries.

    Capitalism is a wonderful thing...
    i know i've told you this before.... but you? you. are awesome.

  10. #260
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    Re: Labor Unions Join Wall Street Occupiers for "Mass Rally'

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Its not about envy, its about how to make society be as functional, wealthy, and as efficient as possible, given the constraints of human nature.

    This is a question of engineering more than it is about anything else.

    Any good engineer will compensate for flawed materials if that is what they have to work with. One can complaint that x steel is not as good as y steel, but if x steel is what they got, they find a way to make it work. Human nature is flawed, so we must account for it and build a system that works within those flaws.
    This analogy must make you feel good, but is otherwise absurd to the n'th degree. The better analogy would be that the bad steel ends up where little is expected of it. It can carry little burden, and so it will carry none of consequence. Just fill in the space while the better steel gets the better part of the job.

    Here's a much simpler analogy for you, and its spot on with these free-loading bums: "You get what you pay for".

    Pay for sloth, you get more sloth.

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