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Thread: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Not if they are here illegally.



    As long as it's done legally. Legally never means (to me) simple open borders.
    We need not throw open our borders entirely, but I see no reason to crack down on the illegal immigrants who are here. Some degree of illegal immigration (or at least, immigrants who are willing and able to work for less than the minimum wage) is a good thing. Especially for jobs that require little training and are in unpleasant conditions, which Americans won't do unless they are paid an inflated wage.

    I disagree that me paying for the work the employer gets is a better solution.
    But that isn't paying them for the work they do. If the market value of a job is $3 per hour, and the government demands that the employer pay $7.25 per hour, then the employer is essentially paying them $3 for their work and $4.25 in economic support because they're poor. I'm not saying supporting the poor is a bad thing, far from it. But the public should pay for it. And more importantly than the moral argument is the practical argument: labor restrictions are usually much more distortive than social programs.
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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We need not throw open our borders entirely

    Sorry, you lost me. Market principles do not work when you interject illegal activity into it. Farmer A can beat farmer B's prices easily if he decides that the best way to do that is in not pay his taxes.

    But that isn't paying them for the work they do. If the market value of a job is $3 per hour, and the government demands that the employer pay $7.25 per hour, then the employer is essentially paying them $3 for their work and $4.25 in economic support because they're poor. I'm not saying supporting the poor is a bad thing, far from it. But the public should pay for it. And more importantly than the moral argument is the practical argument: labor restrictions are usually much more distortive than social programs.
    I'll pass on that concept.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We need not throw open our borders entirely, but I see no reason to crack down on the illegal immigrants who are here. Some degree of illegal immigration (or at least, immigrants who are willing and able to work for less than the minimum wage) is a good thing. Especially for jobs that require little training and are in unpleasant conditions, which Americans won't do unless they are paid an inflated wage.
    All we have to do it start enforcing the law and a large portion of the illegals will leave.



    But that isn't paying them for the work they do. If the market value of a job is $3 per hour, and the government demands that the employer pay $7.25 per hour, then the employer is essentially paying them $3 for their work and $4.25 in economic support because they're poor. I'm not saying supporting the poor is a bad thing, far from it. But the public should pay for it. And more importantly than the moral argument is the practical argument: labor restrictions are usually much more distortive than social programs.
    Farmers are, "the public". What with the money that farmers get from farm subsidies, I don't have much sympathy for them if they have to start paying a hand 7 bucks an hour vice 3 bucks an hour.
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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    All we have to do it start enforcing the law and a large portion of the illegals will leave.
    Yeah but as I said:
    Some degree of illegal immigration (or at least, immigrants who are willing and able to work for less than the minimum wage) is a good thing. Especially for jobs that require little training and are in unpleasant conditions, which Americans won't do unless they are paid an inflated wage.
    So before you start trying to convince me of your solutions you'd need to convince me why it's a problem in the first place.

    Farmers are, "the public". What with the money that farmers get from farm subsidies, I don't have much sympathy for them if they have to start paying a hand 7 bucks an hour vice 3 bucks an hour.
    Adding one more market-distorting regulation doesn't cancel the other out. The more appropriate solution is to end farm subsidies AND allow them to hire whomever they want, at whatever wage the market will bear.
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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by petaluna View Post
    That's just what Mao said....and he followed through........how did that work out?
    Nice straw man you have there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That is the very issue being discussed. Shielding people from market forces by cracking down on illegal immigration just makes the economy worse off.



    Good. Then people would have jobs at a wage they could live with, and employers would have workers at a wage they could afford. Win/win.



    Yes. The minimum wage is horridly counterproductive, and the people it harms most of all are the poorest. It prevents people whose skillset isn't WORTH $7.25 per hour from finding a job at all.
    I agree. Minimum wages increase unemployment... just a fact of life. Perhaps a minimum wage is nessecary for other social reasons, but we should appreciate that it increases friction in the labor market, and puts the very least skilled and capable out of work.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    I agree. Minimum wages increase unemployment... just a fact of life. Perhaps a minimum wage is nessecary for other social reasons, but we should appreciate that it increases friction in the labor market, and puts the very least skilled and capable out of work.
    It is ridiculous to say that minimum wage is necessary for "social reasons." It's not. It's holding back the economy. "Social reasons" demand that we abolish the minimum wage.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    The original justification for the minimum wage law was actually rooted in Jim Crow ideology. White people didn't like blacks taking "white jobs" for lower wages, so they implemented a minimum wage law forcing employers to pay wages that white people would work for (thus taking away the economic incentive to hire blacks instead of whites). That's not to say that most modern supporters of the minimum wage aren't well-intentioned, but I think the parallels are pretty obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It is ridiculous to say that minimum wage is necessary for "social reasons." It's not. It's holding back the economy. "Social reasons" demand that we abolish the minimum wage.
    Well, I concede that reasonable people could disagree on the point, hence my use of the words "perhaps." Here's my concern:

    Below some minimal level of income, workers are still dependent on society at large for their needs. Consider healthcare for example. A very low-wage worker can't afford emergency room visits, but will use one in emergency situations. The cost of treating that worker is then socialized, either through increased surcharges for the paying users of the hospital or through some other form of socialized medicine.

    Therefore, the employer has only succeded in passing the costs of caring for that worker on to society at large. In other words, the employer is forcing the taxpayer or hospital goer to make up the difference between what they pay and a true living wage.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Except if hiring illegals to do work no American wants to do keeps prices low so consumers can spend more money elsewhere and allows food to be produced in the United States and even forms part of your exports, then it would actually have the same effect as a... TAX CUT!

    Well not exactly, it's a tax increase, when after the seasonal work is done, we have to house them, feed them, educate them, give them free medical, and in just as many cases pay to house them in our jails ..

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