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Thread: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That is the very issue being discussed. Shielding people from market forces by cracking down on illegal immigration just makes the economy worse off.

    Good. Then people would have jobs at a wage they could live with, and employers would have workers at a wage they could afford. Win/win.

    Yes. The minimum wage is horridly counterproductive, and the people it harms most of all are the poorest. It prevents people whose skillset isn't WORTH $7.25 per hour from finding a job at all.
    Well, it's certainly interesting to see a liberal argue that people are paid too much.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    They are here illegally. They can not say anything. If not for minimum wage there would be places paying well under that rate and people would take them.

    Serious.....you are argueing to get rid of the minimum wage?
    I sure am.....it's an artificial glitch in a free market system. Why should someone run a business to lose money....(except the government of course)..........the wage was always set by the availability of the employees and their value to the business owner........get rid of the illegals and hire high school kids.......or pay a minimum wage and double the price of produce.....or shut down the local farms and buy all our produce off shore, where we don't have to watch the slave labour do the picking.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    what's wrong with "that sort of work?"

    i say that there's nothing wrong with it. have the wealthy do it for a season or two. they would get to keep their tax cut, not to mention the extra they'd be bringing in from migrant worker wages. should be all bonus for you.
    That's just what Mao said....and he followed through........how did that work out?

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Well, it's certainly interesting to see a liberal argue that people are paid too much.
    I have argued no such thing. Getting paid $3 per hour is a lot better than getting paid $0 per hour because you can't find a job. An artificial price floor creates unemployment and economic deadweight loss.
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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by petaluna View Post
    I sure am.....it's an artificial glitch in a free market system. Why should someone run a business to lose money....(except the government of course)..........the wage was always set by the availability of the employees and their value to the business owner........get rid of the illegals and hire high school kids.......or pay a minimum wage and double the price of produce.....or shut down the local farms and buy all our produce off shore, where we don't have to watch the slave labour do the picking.
    It wouldn't double the price of produce. I agree in market principles but they can't be skewed with illegal activities.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It wouldn't double the price of produce. I agree in market principles but they can't be skewed with illegal activities.
    It's only illegal BECAUSE you (and many other people) don't actually agree with market principles. You want to shield wages from market forces.

    Look, I'm all for helping the poor. If we as a society believe that people earning less than $7.25 per hour aren't making enough to have a decent standard of living, then we as a society should pay taxes and support the anti-poverty programs to raise their standard of living. What we should NOT do is stick their would-be employer with the cost of supporting them; all that does is distort the market, increase unemployment, and increase prices for consumers.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-07-11 at 04:56 PM.
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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have argued no such thing. Getting paid $3 per hour is a lot better than getting paid $0 per hour because you can't find a job. An artificial price floor creates unemployment and economic deadweight loss.
    O.K. perhaps I stated this poorly. As I said, I have no idea with the arguement of market principles. As I also said, it's not a true market when you interject illegal activity.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's only illegal BECAUSE you (and many other people) don't actually agree with market principles. You want to shield wages from market forces.
    A circular arguement if I ever saw one. If we simply allow them here legally they are going to demand higher wages. I have no problem with allowing as many as we need to come here.

    Look, I'm all for helping the poor. If we as a society believe that people earning less than $7.25 per hour aren't making enough to have a decent standard of living, then we as a society should pay taxes and support the anti-poverty programs to raise their standard of living. What we should NOT do is stick their would-be employer with the cost of supporting them; all that does is distort the market, increase unemployment, and increase prices for consumers.
    If you want to argue against a minimum wage, have at it. Argue it. The other side of your arguement though is that I should support them even though they are not working for me.

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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    A circular arguement if I ever saw one. If we simply allow them here legally they are going to demand higher wages.
    That's fine. As their economic conditions improve, they will indeed demand higher wages. And they'll move up to more advanced jobs that can support higher wages, and be replaced by other workers who are happy to have the opportunity to pick crops at $3 per hour.

    I have no problem with allowing as many as we need to come here.
    Then we don't actually disagree on this.

    If you want to argue against a minimum wage, have at it. Argue it. The other side of your arguement though is that I should support them even though they are not working for me.
    If the public thinks that their standard of living is inadequate, it makes more sense for the public to support them, rather than forcing some specific individual to do so (whose only connection to that person is a business transaction). From an economic standpoint, public assistance is a better option than price controls on labor and/or heavy-handed labor regulations. Social programs are much less distorting to wages for workers, prices for consumers, costs for businesses, and the unemployment rate as a whole.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-07-11 at 05:59 PM.
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    Re: Farmers Strain to Hire American in Place of Migrant Labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's fine. As their economic conditions improve, they will indeed demand higher wages. And they'll move up to more advanced jobs that can support higher wages, and be replaced by other workers who are happy to have the opportunity to pick crops at $3 per hour.
    Not if they are here illegally.

    Then we don't actually disagree on this.
    As long as it's done legally. Legally never means (to me) simple open borders.


    If the public thinks that their standard of living is inadequate, it makes more sense for the public to support them, rather than forcing some specific individual to do so (whose only connection to that person is a business transaction). From an economic standpoint, public assistance is a better option than price controls on labor and/or heavy-handed labor regulations. Social programs are much less distorting to wages for workers, prices for consumers, costs for businesses, and the unemployment rate as a whole.
    I disagree that me paying for the work the employer gets is a better solution.

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