ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in

Kane said:

Why limit it to Eric Holder? Obama admitted he knew aboout it, already.

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Kane said:

Honestly, any discussion about reforms and truth and justice in the USA is a farce anymore. I mean, that Meredith chick in Italy went shopping after her roomie was dead, and they just bribed their way out of it. She's as guilty as O.J.

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X Factor said:

Honestly, I don't know what federal perjury statutes look like. Most state perjury laws require that the lie be about a material fact. Then you have to go on to prove that it was an actual lie, not a mistake or something. I'm not standing up for Holder, here. This was a horribly bad plan and really should probably end his career as AG, but just as I'm annoyed when folks claim Bush and Cheney belong in prison roll simply because these folks didn't like them, I'm also not willing to say Holder belongs in jail.

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On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Yet internal Justice Department documents show that at least ten months before that hearing, Holder began receiving frequent memos discussing Fast and Furious.

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nijato said:

I'm sure they would and currently do... but it's a much smaller market. As long as there are illegal substances, there will be people that illegaly traffic them.

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Grant said:

I think we have to ask ourselves why any reasonable person would inject heroin into their system in the first place? Peer pressure? Depression? Is it cool? It has to be emphasized that it is not cool, but instead very stupid. Maybe a drug version of Scared Straight at the schools.

But whatever the new answers might be, we can be sure that the old ones aren't working.

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Muhammed said:

I'm certainly not a fan of using the criminal justice system for political witch hunts. That's what they did to Scooter Libby and now I think people on the other side of the aisle are simply looking for revenge.

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Muhammed said:

I have to agree with you there. Look at his exact wording.

He used weasle words,"I'm not sure" and "probably" to dodge the question. He was being very careful about how he said that so I don't think a perjury charge would stick.

I'm certainly not a fan of using the criminal justice system for political witch hunts. That's what they did to Scooter Libby and now I think people on the other side of the aisle are simply looking for revenge.

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1Perry said:

Pot was once a smaller market. Do we really want to force the cartels into harder drugs?

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nijato said:

There will never be as many people on hard drugs as pot... I've known many a pothead that can hold down a job and be at least a semiproductive member of civil society. I've never seen heroin or cocaine addiction lead to anything but complete ruin. The demand for hard drugs will never be anything like the demand for pot, even if they sold it all at 7-11s.

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Kane said:

I question the motives of the U.S. "sting operation".

Rather than trying to aid in capturing the cartels, I would bet that the government is secretly trying to control/profit from the drug running like in the Barry Seal/Contra/Air America/Panama scandals.

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Ockham said:

I believe it's limited to Holder because he was the one who gave testimony to Congress which turned out to either be a lie, or if not a lie, showed his complete incompetence. I don't believe the President has made a statement under oath about it yet.

Is she? So you're saying the Italian justice system reflects badly on the U.S. justice system which cannot be reformed because of an (alleged) bribery (of which there's no real evidence) which took place in Italy, over a murder case in Italy, which you claim there's no doubt of guilt - and you know better than everyone else involved for the past 4 years.

Okay then.

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1Perry said:

It most certainly will increase if the cartels are forced into making it their profit centers.

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Kane said:

The TV is saying rich donors were funding the chicks legal bills, not BRIBERY in the literal but figuratively.

Donald Trump was mentioned on Headline News last night, a horrid source of info, I admit. Its still gaming the system, like the NASA chick who plotted to kill and drove in diapers across the country, she got off too, to save the govmnt embarrassment. Are you telling me, that this ATF story is not driven by coverups and PR spin since CBS News first uncovered it?

The mainstream media including the Wa Ho Po are renaming it into a Hollywood movie, lying about WH involvement, etc. Its called the Gunwalker Scandal!:doh

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nijato said:

I really tend to disagree. There's no concievable way that the Mexican drug cartels will do more business if the US were to decriminalize or legalize pot. If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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conservativeguy said:

Let me try to post the proper material in this forum.

ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News


Question.......should Holder resign or should he be charged with perjury? The man is a flat out lying POS yet he runs the DOJ. Can anyone imagine what the dem's would have done to Bush if he had done the same thing? They would have pushed for impeachment with Bush. Has any democrat ever spoken out about this insane policy?

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jamesrage said:

Kinds of makes you wonder if that is connected to this.


Obama blames U.S. guns in Mexico - Washington Times

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Attorney General Eric Holder, questioned by Issa's committee, says he didn't learn of the operation until "weeks ago" and President Barack Obama said he hadn't heard of it either.

It's possible that Melson's operation was given tacit approval in a milieu of silence, referencing the policies of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and three ardent anti-gun senators: Dianne Feinstein, Charles Schumer, and Sheldon Whitehouse.

Earlier this month, the three senators sent a report to a congressional subcommittee recommending an expansion of ATF cooperation with Mexico to curtail U.S. gun sales.

Conspicuously lacking in the senators' report are any recommendations on border security. A real plan to secure the borders would interdict drug, human, and gun smuggling, were that the real intent.

The entire purpose of Operation Gunrunner seems to be to fulfill the wishful thinking of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who made common ground with Mexico's leaders in stating that Mexico's drug violence stems from lax American gun laws.

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nijato said:

I really tend to disagree. There's no concievable way that the Mexican drug cartels will do more business if the US were to decriminalize or legalize pot. If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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conservativeguy said:

Let me try to post the proper material in this forum.

ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News


Question.......should Holder resign or should he be charged with perjury? The man is a flat out lying POS yet he runs the DOJ. Can anyone imagine what the dem's would have done to Bush if he had done the same thing? They would have pushed for impeachment with Bush. Has any democrat ever spoken out about this insane policy?

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sawyerloggingon said:

That baseball guy got put through the ringer for lieing to congress, Clinton got impeached, Holder will not get through this. He will resign because he has become to much of a distraction for the great obama, in other words, lie down Eric the bus is coming.

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KevinKohler said:

If pot is legalized, it will hurt a lot of the smaller operations in the US, the nickle and dimers, their distributers, etc...not the HUGE cartels. Because those cartels are diversified. They have blow. They have opium.

There are tobacco companies who ALREADY have pot fields growing in other countries, awating the day the US legalizes pot. Once the FDA gets involved, the small time growers will not be able to compete, because they will not be able to afford to adhere to all of the regulations the FDA will require of the product. And a once naturally growing, fairly unmolested product will go the way of pretty much everything else this country grows.

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sawyerloggingon said:

That baseball guy got put through the ringer for lieing to congress, Clinton got impeached, Holder will not get through this. He will resign because he has become to much of a distraction for the great obama, in other words, lie down Eric the bus is coming.

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1Perry said:

I don't understand why people feel changing the arguements to suit their viewpoint is a valid positions to take. :shrug:

I said that if pot revenue dry's up they will do everything they can to increase the sales of harder drugs.

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Kane said:

The TV is saying rich donors were funding the chicks legal bills, not BRIBERY in the literal but figuratively.

Donald Trump was mentioned on Headline News last night, a horrid source of info, I admit. Its still gaming the system, like the NASA chick who plotted to kill and drove in diapers across the country, she got off too, to save the govmnt embarrassment. Are you telling me, that this ATF story is not driven by coverups and PR spin since CBS News first uncovered it?

The mainstream media including the Wa Ho Po are renaming it into a Hollywood movie, lying about WH involvement, etc. Its called the Gunwalker Scandal!:doh

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Ockham said:

You know better than to listen to TV right?

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Reporting from Washington— The claim by senior ATF officials that none of the weapons lost in the botched Fast and Furious sting operation were used in the shooting of a Border Patrol agent is not supported by FBI ballistics tests, according to a copy of the FBI report on the shooting.

Last week, spokesmen Scot Thomasson and Drew Wade of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told The Times that the FBI had assured them that neither of the two Fast and Furious weapons found at the scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry's death were the ones that killed the agent.

"We're not aware of any forensic evidence that would link these guns to the homicide," they said.

A copy of the FBI report obtained by The Times' Washington bureau shows ballistics tests did not rule out the Fast and Furious guns.

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Reporting from Washington— The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.

All three have been heavily criticized for pushing the program forward even as it became apparent that it was out of control. At least 2,000 guns were lost and many turned up at crime scenes in Mexico and two at the killing of a U.S. Border Patrol agent in Arizona.

McMahon and Newell have acknowledged making serious mistakes in the program, which was dubbed Operation Fast and Furious.

McMahon was promoted Sunday to deputy assistant director of the ATF's Office of Professional Responsibility and Security Operations — the division that investigates misconduct by employees and other problems.

Newell was the special agent in charge of the field office for Arizona and New Mexico, where Fast and Furious was conducted. On Aug. 1, the ATF announced he would become special assistant to the assistant director of the agency's Office of Management in Washington.

Voth was an on-the-ground team supervisor for the operation, and last month he was moved to Washington to become branch chief for the ATF's tobacco division.

Voth supervised the crew of ATF agents under the operation. As they questioned the wisdom of allowing illegal purchases, he countered that because the weapons were turning up at Mexico crime scenes, cartel leaders had to be involved. He told his crew members they were "watching the right people."

His agents did not buy it.

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