More than 700 arrested in Wall Street protest

sangha · Oct 10, 2011

j-mac said:
Ok, Many today don't have a problem with closing loopholes. However, what are you defining as a loophole, and how does eliminating incentives induce a greater business climate in the US as opposed to say Canada if the overriding tax rates are higher?

j-mac

Actually, the rightwingers you support are all opposed to closing loopholes. Everytime Congress proposes closing them (ex deductions for private jets, etc) the rightwingers start complaining. You even started resisting closing loopholes in this response of yours, before you've even heard what they are, and instead, dishonestly claim that the US has higher tax rates than the US (see charts 8 and 9)

Boo Radley · Oct 10, 2011

Just add:

U.S. taxes are low relative to those in other developed countries. In 2006 U.S. taxes at all levels of government claimed 28 percent of GDP, compared with an average of 36 percent of GDP for the 30 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

How do US taxes compare internationally?

KevinKohler · Oct 10, 2011

Boo Radley said:
Try programs that give an unfair advantage to one group over another. Think corporate welfare. Think education that is better for some but not others, thus making economic opportunity less likely. Think getting most of the benefit, as the wealthy do, but finding ways to not paid that share of the tax burden.

Does that help?

And...what does wall street have to do with ANY of that? You want to go after corporate welfare, you need to tackle the people that allow it first, your elected officials. Public schools got you down? Guess what, stock brokers have no say in how they are run, unless they are PTO members, lol. Just saying.

KevinKohler · Oct 10, 2011

Those graphs only prove that the US is a lowER tax country.

Boo Radley · Oct 10, 2011

KevinKohler said:
And...what does wall street have to do with ANY of that? You want to go after corporate welfare, you need to tackle the people that allow it first, your elected officials. Public schools got you down? Guess what, stock brokers have no say in how they are run, unless they are PTO members, lol. Just saying.

Oh, I have no problem saying our leaders have done their job and properly tackled coporate welfare. And who said stock brokers run education? You seem to making a leap I'm not following.

KevinKohler · Oct 10, 2011

Boo Radley said:
Oh, I have no problem saying our leaders have done their job and properly tackled coporate welfare. And who said stock brokers run education? You seem to making a leap I'm not following.

"Try programs that give an unfair advantage to one group over another. Think corporate welfare. Think education that is better for some but not others, thus making economic opportunity less likely. Think getting most of the benefit, as the wealthy do, but finding ways to not paid that share of the tax burden.

Does that help?"

They are protesting wall street, but of the things you listed, wall street has legal control over....NONE of them. Unfair education, corporate welfare, etc. Pretty much all the things on the docket for protest, are legally controlled by NO ONE ON WALL STREET. They should be collecting money to have every one bus or fly to DC, instead of using it by themselves pizzas during their camp outs. If they did that, hell, I might even join them. I was active with the tea partiers before that one got hijacked, too. And make no mistake, this one WILL get hijacked. In the end, all movements sell out at some point, hoping for a few moral sacrifices to yield more recognition by having someone famous be their spokesperson. Like a politician.

dirtpoorchris · Oct 10, 2011

dontworrybehappy said:
Yea, but J-mac, wasn't it posters on this site who used photos from Tea Party demonstrations by non-tea party members put in place simply for photo ops holding racist signs to go against the tea party, who claimed that the "tea baggers" were nothing but racist thugs?

I seem to think I do recall that, and if necessary, will start naming names.

While people are pointing out grains of sand on the beach (A grain of sand holds a racist sign and all the grains are racist???)

I'll point out that small groups of popo's are out they accepting paychecks to silence innocent protesters. (and maybe even try to terrorize them.. Or at least a really bad scaring for no reason)

I know its way, way wrong.... But for some reason that girl on her knees screaming, "WHY!?!?!?!"(or is that just wordless screaming?) makes me chuckle. How wrong of me.

Catawba · Oct 10, 2011

KevinKohler said:
And...what does wall street have to do with ANY of that? You want to go after corporate welfare, you need to tackle the people that allow it first, your elected officials. Public schools got you down? Guess what, stock brokers have no say in how they are run, unless they are PTO members, lol. Just saying.

"Cain and Geist don’t get the Occupy Wall Street movement because it is anything but about Washington. One thing that’s become clear to me, being on site at two Occupy communities (I’m visiting Philly and NYC today and tomorrow) is that people no longer have faith in elected officials. Get corporations out of government, get corporate money out of elections are very common signs and chants.

The members of the Occupy communities see the Occupy movement as an alternative, as an extra-legislative approach to making change happen. Members of congress, overall, are failing to respond to the interests and needs of their constituents, instead, taking care of the corporations who pay their campaign TV advertising budgets."

"This is a truly bottom up uprising, an awakening among the 99% of Americans who are being mistreated and exploited by big multinational corporations, with the help of a congress and White House that have sold the middle class out."
Those Who Say Occupy Wall Street Movement Should Go To Washington Don’t Get It « WAMMToday

Grant · Oct 10, 2011

Boo Radley said:
Try programs that give an unfair advantage to one group over another.

Such as Affirmative Action?

sangha · Oct 10, 2011

KevinKohler said:
They are protesting wall street.

And here we have another example of the rightwingers disingenously pretending that they don't know what the protests are about so that they can make dishonest arguments stating what the protests are about. Their dishonesty proves that they aren't interested in explanations; they're just fishing for bait to launch another dishonest attack

According to KK, these people aren't protesting our political system

Grant · Oct 11, 2011

sangha said:
And here we have another example of the rightwingers disingenously pretending that they don't know what the protests are about so that they can make dishonest arguments stating what the protests are about. Their dishonesty proves that they aren't interested in explanations; they're just fishing for bait to launch another dishonest attack

According to KK, these people aren't protesting our political system

I see where they want to

GET MONEY OUT OF GOVERNMENT

but in fact that's already happened. Or at least the government is out of money. They're $15 trillion in debt and counting. The money has never been out of government the way it is now. Maybe they're protesting in the wrong city.

They apparently want to outlaw corporations, which might be a poorly thought out idea, and against deregulation, which might relate to the Dodd-Franks bill - two democrats. Who knows?

So it seems they do have something on their minds but it doesn't seem to be very well articulated.

sangha · Oct 11, 2011

Grant said:
I see where they want to but in fact that's already happened. Or at least the government is out of money. They're $15 trillion in debt and counting. The money has never been out of government the way it is now. Maybe they're protesting in the wrong city.

They apparently want to outlaw corporations, which might be a poorly thought out idea, and against deregulation, which might relate to the Dodd-Franks bill - two democrats. Who knows?

So it seems they do have something on their minds but it doesn't seem to be very well articulated.

And here we have another example of the rightwingers disingenously pretending that they don't know what the protests are about so that they can make dishonest arguments stating what the protests are about. Their dishonesty proves that they aren't interested in explanations; they're just fishing for bait to launch another dishonest attack

Grant dishonestly claims they want to outlaw corporations

cpwill · Oct 11, 2011

j-mac said:
I used to look at crap like this and use it as validation that my theory of, what ever libs accuse conservatives of is in fact what they do. Remember, how libs in the media, and in here tried, and continue to try and paint Tea Partiers as "extreme", "Violent", or worse?

i've been noticing the same thing - it's some kind of weird projection. that, or straight cynicism, which also shouldn't be discounted.

Grant · Oct 11, 2011

sangha said:
And here we have another example of the rightwingers disingenously pretending that they don't know what the protests are about so that they can make dishonest arguments stating what the protests are about. Their dishonesty proves that they aren't interested in explanations; they're just fishing for bait to launch another dishonest attack

Grant dishonestly claims they want to outlaw corporations

You're right and I was wrong. The sign said "Wall Street and Greed have corrupted the political process". It's not an original idea, in fact it's decades old, and they don't seem to have any answer to the problem at all. In fact they don't appear to have any serious ideas or solutions. If you see any perhaps you can post them. So far they just seem to be shouting, milling about, occasionally violent and appear to be very confused.

It seems i was correct about the rest of it though.

sangha · Oct 11, 2011

Grant said:
You're right and I was wrong. The sign said "Wall Street and Greed have corrupted the political process". It's not an original idea, in fact it's decades old, and they don't seem to have any answer to the problem at all. In fact they don't appear to have any serious ideas or solutions. If you see any perhaps you can post them. So far they just seem to be shouting, milling about, occasionally violent and appear to be very confused.

It seems i was correct about the rest of it though.

This is just more rightwing nuttery pretending to not know what the protests are about.

GhostlyJoe · Oct 11, 2011

Hypocrisy crosses party lines. Surely you guys don't believe conservatives are above this kind of behavior.

Just off the top of my head:

-- Decrying political correctness and claiming to defend the constitution while demanding that Muslims not exercise freedom of religion if its near ground zero.
-- Championing the tea party as "great Americans" exercising their constitutional freedoms while denigrating the Occupy Wall Streeters and Wisconsin protesters as thugs for doing the same thing.
-- Demanding that nobody should care what CEOs and very wealthy people earn while decrying teachers' "gold-plated benefits."
-- Ridiculing "politically correct" language while rolling out politically loaded terms like "death panels" and "job creators."

So many view their political opponents with close-minded orthodoxy. It's politically effective. It's simple. But it's not accurate or constructive -- at least not if we're interested in pragmatic governance.

Grant · Oct 11, 2011

sangha said:
This is just more rightwing nuttery pretending to not know what the protests are about.

What do you think they are about?

sangha · Oct 11, 2011

Grant said:
What do you think they are about?

I don't waste my time explaining things to rightwingers who are obviously dedicated to dishonestly pretending they don't know what the protests are about.

Grant · Oct 11, 2011

GhostlyJoe said:
Hypocrisy crosses party lines. Surely you guys don't believe conservatives are above this kind of behavior.

Just off the top of my head:

-- Decrying political correctness and claiming to defend the constitution while demanding that Muslims not exercise freedom of religion if its near ground zero.

Muslims are free to exercise their religion and build Mosques, and they are all over North America, while people are free to protest their location. Are you saying protests against the location of Mosques should be forbidden while other protests, such as the one near Wall street, continue?

-- Championing the tea party as "great Americans" exercising their constitutional freedoms while denigrating the Occupy Wall Streeters and Wisconsin protesters as thugs for doing the same thing.

It's quite easy to denigrate the WSO because their message is inarticulate and so many of them have been arrested. I haven't heard of any Tea Party members being arrested, nor have they been violent. They seem to have left the places of protest cleaner than when they arrived while there is a great deal of filth around the leftists.

-- Demanding that nobody should care what CEOs and very wealthy people earn while decrying teachers' "gold-plated benefits."

CEO's, for the most part, are not on the public payroll nor in unions that can shut down government services.

-- Ridiculing "politically correct" language while rolling out politically loaded terms like "death panels" and "job creators."

You don't believe there is such a thing as job creators? And it would seem that the term 'death panel' is not far off the mark if everyone doesn't get the health care they need.

So many view their political opponents with close-minded orthodoxy. It's politically effective. It's simple. But it's not accurate or constructive -- at least not if we're interested in pragmatic governance.

You feel the WSO or BHO is 'pragmatic'?

Grant · Oct 11, 2011

sangha said:
I don't waste my time explaining things to rightwingers who are obviously dedicated to dishonestly pretending they don't know what the protests are about.

So you don't know either, huh?

sangha · Oct 11, 2011

Grant said:
Muslims are free to exercise their religion and build Mosques, and they are all over North America, while people are free to protest their location. Are you saying protests against the location of Mosques should be forbidden while other protests, such as the one near Wall street, continue?

A dishonest straw man because GJ didn't question their right to protest; He merely pointed out their dishonest hypocrisy

It's quite easy to denigrate the WSO because their message is inarticulate and so many of them have been arrested. I haven't heard of any Tea Party members being arrested, nor have they been violent. They seem to have left the places of protest cleaner than when they arrived while there is a great deal of filth around the leftists.

The teabaggers, like the WSO protesters, had varying messages. Unlike the tea tantrums, none of the WSO's messages are racist.

And plenty of teabaggers have been arrested and have been violent or made violent threats. And complaining about the non-existent "filth" is just another dishonest attempt to misportray them as "dirty hippies". The rightwingers dishonesty about WSO is motivated by their hatred.

CEO's, for the most part, are not on the public payroll nor in unions that can shut down government services.

More dishonesty. Unions are not shutting down govt services. They merely are witholding their labor, which is a human right. The wingnuts claim they are about protecting peoples' rights, but their desire to make people slaves betrays their lack of principles.

You don't believe there is such a thing as job creators? And it would seem that the term 'death panel' is not far off the mark if everyone doesn't get the health care they need.

Corporations are not job creators. It's the workers who create jobs. And "death panels" were another rightwing lie.

You feel the WSO or BHO is 'pragmatic'?

A dishonest attempt to equate WSO with the president

Grant said:
So you don't know either, huh?

More dishonesty

GhostlyJoe · Oct 11, 2011

Grant said:
Muslims are free to exercise their religion and build Mosques, and they are all over North America, while people are free to protest their location. Are you saying protests against the location of Mosques should be forbidden while other protests, such as the one near Wall street, continue?

I'm saying no such thing. My point is clear: Asinine behavior exists on both sides. Pretending otherwise is pure posturing.

It's quite easy to denigrate the WSO because their message is inarticulate and so many of them have been arrested. I haven't heard of any Tea Party members being arrested, nor have they been violent. They seem to have left the places of protest cleaner than when they arrived while there is a great deal of filth around the leftists.

Tea partiers have in fact been arrested in isolated incidents. One conviction in particular I can recall involved a threat to Rep. Buccieri. There were other instances of uncouth behavior, inane rants, offensive signage. You exaggerate the differences, noting that minor arrests are often a goal of protesters.

CEO's, for the most part, are not on the public payroll nor in unions that can shut down government services.

Public workers have negotiated contracts; strikes are uncommon.

You don't believe there is such a thing as job creators? And it would seem that the term 'death panel' is not far off the mark if everyone doesn't get the health care they need.

Of course there are job creators. But I also understand the use of rhetoric and crafted messages. Job creators is a strategic term meant to win sympathy.

You feel the WSO or BHO is 'pragmatic'?

Obama's been pragmatic in negotiations at times, more idealist in '08-'09 and again recently. He's clearly a calculating politician, so he's a pragmatist when it suits his needs.

WSO is an idealist movement, as is the tea party.

Boo Radley · Oct 11, 2011

KevinKohler said:
"Try programs that give an unfair advantage to one group over another. Think corporate welfare. Think education that is better for some but not others, thus making economic opportunity less likely. Think getting most of the benefit, as the wealthy do, but finding ways to not paid that share of the tax burden.

Does that help?"

They are protesting wall street, but of the things you listed, wall street has legal control over....NONE of them. Unfair education, corporate welfare, etc. Pretty much all the things on the docket for protest, are legally controlled by NO ONE ON WALL STREET. They should be collecting money to have every one bus or fly to DC, instead of using it by themselves pizzas during their camp outs. If they did that, hell, I might even join them. I was active with the tea partiers before that one got hijacked, too. And make no mistake, this one WILL get hijacked. In the end, all movements sell out at some point, hoping for a few moral sacrifices to yield more recognition by having someone famous be their spokesperson. Like a politician.

Look for context. J asked a question, and I answered. Context often matters.

Boo Radley · Oct 11, 2011

Grant said:
Such as Affirmative Action?

No. Affirmative action says you cannot give an unfair advantage to any group. Too many as we've seen on the other thread have no idea what Affirmative action actually says. Misinformation dies a slow, slow death.

Grant · Oct 11, 2011

sangha said:
sangha said:

A dishonest straw man because GJ didn't question their right to protest; He merely pointed out their dishonest hypocrisy

Click to expand...

Will you be keeping the reason for this 'hypocrisy' to yourself as well, just as your reasons for the OWS protest?

The teabaggers, like the WSO protesters, had varying messages. Unlike the tea tantrums, none of the WSO's messages are racist.

Click to expand...

We have recent evidence that there is open racism at the OWS, on this thread in fact, while there was no demonstration of racism during the tea party protests.

And plenty of teabaggers have been arrested and have been violent or made violent threats.

Click to expand...

Then let's see them. Please provide a link.

And complaining about the non-existent "filth" is just another dishonest attempt to misportray them as "dirty hippies". The rightwingers dishonesty about WSO is motivated by their hatred.

Click to expand...

Sex, drugs, and unsanitary conditions common at Occupy Wall Street protests | National News - The BIG One - WTAM 1100 There are dozens of similar stories.

More dishonesty. Unions are not shutting down govt services. They merely are witholding their labor, which is a human right.

Click to expand...

It's also a legal right. But when that goes too far people look for alternatives, which is also a human and legal right, so far.

The wingnuts claim they are about protecting peoples' rights, but their desire to make people slaves betrays their lack of principles.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone propose the idea of slavery in the United States. Do you have a link?

Corporations are not job creators. It's the workers who create jobs.

Click to expand...

Then perhaps the OWS crowd can get out there and start creating some jobs. What's holding them back?

And "death panels" were another rightwing lie.

Click to expand...

No, it was not a lie.

A dishonest attempt to equate WSO with the president

Click to expand...

Certainly many of these people voted for Barrack Obama, they seem the type, so if they were against his policies, or the Dodd- Frank Bill, they would be protesting at the White House. I don't judge their intentions or bipartisanship by a single poster.

More dishonesty

Click to expand...

So you do know their intentions but just don;t want to say. Is that correct?

More than 700 arrested in Wall Street protest

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