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Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

cpwill

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German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble ruled out Germany contributing any more money to the beefed-up EU bail-out fund than the 211 billion euros approved by parliament, in an interview published Saturday...

He also suggested the European Stability Mechanism, which is due to replace the EFSF by 2013 at the latest, would be smaller....

A majority of Germans (58%) consider it was a mistake to boost the EFSF, according to a poll to be published Sunday in the weekly Bild am Sonntag...


going to be interesting to see what form of the Euro survives all this.
 
Could be the end of the EU.

Yea that would please a lot of Americans and Brits.... not that it will ever happen... The US falling apart due to right vs left civil war is more likely.
 
The US falling apart due to right vs left civil war is more likely.

Yes Pete. Of course.

You know what else is just as likely, me having anal sex with Natalie Portman while on the Hulk at Universal Studios.
 
Yes Pete. Of course.

You know what else is just as likely, me having anal sex with Natalie Portman while on the Hulk at Universal Studios.

Yea exactly!....

Point is there is way too much invested in the EU and there are far too many benefits for the EU to fall apart. Even the most Euro-sceptic country of the UK has had Conservative governments that have been Euro-sceptic for ages and yet they still wont let the Brits vote in a referendum and openly back the EU....
 
Yes Pete. Of course.

You know what else is just as likely, me having anal sex with Natalie Portman while on the Hulk at Universal Studios.

Which is still more likely than the EU ceasing to exist, so Pete ain't wrong.
 
Yes Pete. Of course.

You know what else is just as likely, me having anal sex with Natalie Portman while on the Hulk at Universal Studios.

One question though... what is the Hulk at Universal Studios? Not been there since 1983 heh..
 
I find this development interesting on one side, but disturbing on the other. And I am disappointed by my (German) politicians. Merkel and her conservative CDU flip-flopped all the time, it was never clear whether she wants to appease the euroskeptics who don't want to spend more money, or if she takes a clear stance in favor of a European solution. That Merkel's small coalition junior partner, the libertarian FDP, is at the brink of collapse, didn't help either.

If anything, I would like to see the German government to take a clear stance, either a clear "no" to European solutions, or a clear "yes". A strict, consistent course in either way would be better, than talking a middle way, flip flopping all the time, and claiming after each new step that this was the last step, although everybody knows this isn't the case.
 
truth. let your yes be yes and your no be no.

as for the EU, it will not survive in it's current form. there simply isn't a way to bail out a structural defect - someone somewhere will have to go.
 
truth. let your yes be yes and your no be no.

as for the EU, it will not survive in it's current form. there simply isn't a way to bail out a structural defect - someone somewhere will have to go.

I really hope the EU will survive, ideally in a better form than it used to be. Wouldn't be a bad side effect if this crisis could result in a better EU than the one we used to have.

The possibility of the EU falling apart, on the other side, worries me. Despite all its flaws, it was the best historical answer we have to centuries of bloody wars and division.
 
I really hope the EU will survive, ideally in a better form than it used to be. Wouldn't be a bad side effect if this crisis could result in a better EU than the one we used to have.

The possibility of the EU falling apart, on the other side, worries me. Despite all its flaws, it was the best historical answer we have to centuries of bloody wars and division.

I have thought that the EU had benefitted Europe. As an outside observer, it appears the heavily indebted countries are essentially demanding more investment from their partners than is justifiable given their own efforts and contributions. Is austerity the answer or is the problem caused by the structure? I am reading that Greece has too many gov't giveaways. Maybe the same for the other PIGS. Is that true?
 
I have thought that the EU had benefitted Europe. As an outside observer, it appears the heavily indebted countries are essentially demanding more investment from their partners than is justifiable given their own efforts and contributions. Is austerity the answer or is the problem caused by the structure? I am reading that Greece has too many gov't giveaways. Maybe the same for the other PIGS. Is that true?

I have to admit economics is not my specialty and it's hard for me to estimate all the connections in this economic mess. But from what I've gathered, yes, I believe that's more or less the case: Greece and other "PIIGS" spent like drunken sailors. That was still more or less okay, until the financial crisis hit in 2008/09. This pushed them over the edge and brought Greece into a situation where they could no longer borrow cheap money and their household exploded.

So the economically stable countries, especially Germany, were asked to aid Greece, but naturally, they are reluctant, because they want to see Greece taking the necessary measures of austerity.

On the other side, Germany's attempt to bail out Greece are maybe partly egoistic after all: The aid would allow Greece to pay back some debts for the moment, which in case of bankruptcy would be lost -- but who would receive these paybacks? German and France banks, mostly. If Germany let Greece go bankrupt, chances are we'd see another banking crash like in 2008, because German banks would get problems the moment the money they lended Greece was gone.

So I am not sure if Merkel is really doing all this bailing out because she's a convinced pro-European, or simply because she don't want to deal with German banks going bankrupt after a Greece default.
 
truth. let your yes be yes and your no be no.

as for the EU, it will not survive in it's current form. there simply isn't a way to bail out a structural defect - someone somewhere will have to go.

And this is your problem... the EU has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEFICITS... countries within the EU have run deficits for decades (as well as surpluses) and other than an agreement to not go over 3% which everyone broke, then the EU has no power or interest in how a country runs its business.

The problem now is uniquely to the Eurozone. Countries within the EU have had horrible deficits and it has not had any impact on their membership. The lists include the UK, Poland, Hungary, Austria, France, Italy, Denmark, and so on and so on. Now the problem comes with the Eurozone since they have the same currency and not a fully integrated economic system and yes here you could see countries leave the Euro so they can piss in their pants again.. aka devalue a new currency.

But this comes with consequences for everyone and is very expensive and frankly can be much more expensive than fixing their structural problems. Spain, Italy and others are doing so.. the problem is Greece where the population have had enough of big business, bankers and the rich ****ing up their economy for profit and letting the rest of the population pay for it. Most Greeks understand that they need to change their ways (tax collecting and so on) and accept this, but not if the attitude and usual suspects dont also change, and so far they have not seen so which pisses them off.

Again the EU will not break up. The Euro will stay in some sort of form and the Greek problem will get fixed some how most likely with a structured default. The only real question is when the European politicans will get their hands out of each other asses and start playing hardball with the Anglo-American speculators and financial institutions who have a large part of the blame for the financial crisis and have yet to pay for it. Personally I want prison terms for top executives of the big American banks, financial institutions, AIG and frankly some politicans for allowing an unregulated sub-prime mortgage market to even exist... but I know fully well that will never happen in the current political climate in the US.
 
I have to admit economics is not my specialty and it's hard for me to estimate all the connections in this economic mess. But from what I've gathered, yes, I believe that's more or less the case: Greece and other "PIIGS" spent like drunken sailors. That was still more or less okay, until the financial crisis hit in 2008/09. This pushed them over the edge and brought Greece into a situation where they could no longer borrow cheap money and their household exploded.

Again no they did not all spend like drunken sailors. Deficits exploded because of the US created credit crunch that sucker punched a key part of any economy.. the building sector. But each country is different.

Greece did yes with structural issues that are huge, but it also spent it on credit based on a failed bank that gave no interest.. aka a tip box tax collecting system. They out right lied to everyone about their deficit.. and frankly not much you can do about that other than punish the country.. which has happened.. 10 fold.

Spain did not spend like a drunken sailor and had in fact a surplus until the US created credit crisis hit the planet. Spain's problem was an over reliance on the building sector and now it has to redo its economy with a smaller building industry and find new jobs which is hard in a labour market that is stiff as a morning boner. Add to that it has to get rid of a lot of unsold homes, which is slowly happening.. ironically enough yet again to the very Northern European clients that originally drove the demand for housing in Spain.

Italy also did not spend like a drunken sailor and had surpluses... in fact it cut its debt load over the last 20 years. Italy is very dependent on exports and since there is a world economic crisis, then said exports fall and any surpluses turn to deficits and debt loads rise. Add to that a government that has more in common with Homer Simpson than Winston Churchill and you have a problem.

Portugal had one problem.. a political inability to deal with left over structural problems from the former dictatorships that prevented growth. They are now dealing with this.. it is unpopular, but that is life.

Ireland.. drank too much USA kool-aid and use the US idea of a debt based economy to rise higher and higher (and are doing it again sadly). If any country should go bankrupt in Europe it should be Ireland considering the massive amounts of government, business and private debt the country has.. it makes Greece look like a good deal. Only thing Ireland has going for it, is a good tax collecting system.

Budget surpluses turned to deficits and deficits grew because of the US created credit crunch.. that is a fact of life in a recession.

In the end Germany, France, and the rest of the Eurozone have only seen huge benefits from having the common currency and going back to national currencies would be economic sucide for most countries, which is why the Euro will stay. Now Greece might get kicked out, but that does not change the fact that the Euro is here to stay regardless of what the Anglo-American anti European talking heads say.

It would be like saying that California would leave the US dollar to form its own currency so that it could devalue its way out of its economic problems... how realistic is that?
 
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an agreement to not go over 3% which everyone broke.
My country was one of the few who strongly objected to it. Unfortunately they lost Germany's support.

Again the EU will not break up.

Not if we stick to the treaty and improve our regulations and regulators.
 
My country was one of the few who strongly objected to it. Unfortunately they lost Germany's support.

Problem is not the 3% threshold, but the lack of ability to enforce it. The idea in it self is a good one provided there is a "the **** hit the fan" exception for a situation like the financial crisis. Now things are changing in many countries where they are putting into law such restrictions to the deficit.. Spain is amending its constitution to implement such a limit.. and a small one at that..

Not if we stick to the treaty and improve our regulations and regulators.

That and a few other things yes. Point is the EU wont fall apart.
 
What I end up being more attentive to when these issues surface (because this isn't the first time we've had such a discussion) - is that Germany is in the position as a nation to assist other.

I think they have made a significant economic turnaround - and other countries who are struggling in that area should actually consider emulating the basic elements of their success - without killing everyone in the process.
 
The European Union is far stronger than the crappy USA and it will still be around after your pathetic currency finally collapses. And it will get even stronger once Russia is allowed to preside over it.
 
Иосиф Сталин;1059842863 said:
The European Union is far stronger than the crappy USA and it will still be around after your pathetic currency finally collapses. And it will get even stronger once Russia is allowed to preside over it.

You're attending College and living in Columbus, Georgia.

Don't you mean "our pathetic currency"

Unless there's a Columbus, Georgia - where - near Abul or Akhali-Pantiani?
 
truth. let your yes be yes and your no be no.

as for the EU, it will not survive in it's current form. there simply isn't a way to bail out a structural defect - someone somewhere will have to go.

Agreed. Those countries that have run their business properly cannot be continuosly making bad loans to the free-loading members. Besides whatever cost-analysis one makes, it is just plain politically unviable. Liberal nanny-state fail. We always said it would fail. And now it has.

Jeez, look at the coming tsunami that is going to throw Obama so far out of office that we may never see him again. Same crap.
 
This is the real question that I wonder if anyone, Papandreou, Merkel, Bernanke, Geitner... anyone... knows the answer to: Assuming Greece is going to default in some fashion, can a $600 bn+ implosion of insurance payouts (CDS) that will sink banks across the continent and ripple across the Atlantic be avoided, or is the inevitable being avoided just long enough for some derivative positions to be unwound before the fire sale?
NYT: Derivatives Cloud the Possible Fallout From a Greek Default

In other words, if Greece is Lehman, then is SocGen (or some other Euro bank) AIG? If so, who throws out the Euro-TARP? Surely not Merkel's Germany.

This crisis has the potential to become very disorderly.
 
And this is your problem... the EU has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEFICITS... countries within the EU have run deficits for decades (as well as surpluses) and other than an agreement to not go over 3% which everyone broke, then the EU has no power or interest in how a country runs its business.

which does not alter the fact that Greece's debt is inherent to it's populace, not a product of poor governance (though that certainly has made matters much much worse). you can't bail out Greece - and she's hardly the only one in her situation; merely the first. which is why I stated that at some point either the strong nations will leave the EU, or they will kick the weak ones out.

The problem now is uniquely to the Eurozone. Countries within the EU have had horrible deficits and it has not had any impact on their membership. The lists include the UK, Poland, Hungary, Austria, France, Italy, Denmark, and so on and so on. Now the problem comes with the Eurozone since they have the same currency and not a fully integrated economic system and yes here you could see countries leave the Euro so they can piss in their pants again.. aka devalue a new currency.

But this comes with consequences for everyone and is very expensive and frankly can be much more expensive than fixing their structural problems. Spain, Italy and others are doing so.. the problem is Greece where the population have had enough of big business, bankers and the rich ****ing up their economy for profit and letting the rest of the population pay for it

:lol: the problem is definitely Greece, but it's where the Greeks decided to vote themselves lavish entitlements, insane leisure, and then not have any kids to pay for it all.
 
I find this development interesting on one side, but disturbing on the other. And I am disappointed by my (German) politicians. Merkel and her conservative CDU flip-flopped all the time, it was never clear whether she wants to appease the euroskeptics who don't want to spend more money, or if she takes a clear stance in favor of a European solution. That Merkel's small coalition junior partner, the libertarian FDP, is at the brink of collapse, didn't help either.

Not coming out with a clear position and requirement has been a problem.

If anything, I would like to see the German government to take a clear stance, either a clear "no" to European solutions, or a clear "yes". A strict, consistent course in either way would be better, than talking a middle way, flip flopping all the time, and claiming after each new step that this was the last step, although everybody knows this isn't the case.

I absolutely agree.
 
Agreed. Those countries that have run their business properly cannot be continuosly making bad loans to the free-loading members. Besides whatever cost-analysis one makes, it is just plain politically unviable. Liberal nanny-state fail. We always said it would fail. And now it has.

Jeez, look at the coming tsunami that is going to throw Obama so far out of office that we may never see him again. Same crap.

The issue isn't even so much one of bad governance, these are Issues of corporate corruption and legalized theft. It's the same story everywhere that's been either Been bailed out, or needing a bailout. It's Iceland that's found the solution : call the banks out as being the culprits and that the debt is not owed by the people, then almost immediately the banks come back with revised numbers and don't need bailouts.

Otherwise, the EU is as good as doomed... The US as well though, so let's realize the bad guys are the big banks, not capitalism, not the people getting too big a mortgage (that's a fraction o the problem still), this isn't even a problem created by unions (though sometimes they are too strong), this is a result of cronyism, lack of enforcement and massive theft through derivatives.
 
which does not alter the fact that Greece's debt is inherent to it's populace, not a product of poor governance (though that certainly has made matters much much worse).

LOL it is poor governance lol.. seriously have you even followed what went wrong? The Conservative Greek government LIED to the world including their own people and American banks and financial institutions helped them in hiding the truth.. that their deficit was much larger than reported and they had off the books debt .. thanks to J.P. Morgan and Co.

you can't bail out Greece - and she's hardly the only one in her situation; merely the first. which is why I stated that at some point either the strong nations will leave the EU, or they will kick the weak ones out.

Again you have zero understanding of the situation. Countries will always have debt.... even China has over 30% debt... You can not run a country without debt, just as you cant run a company without debt.

Now Greece committed fraud, pure and simple and will ultimately pay for said fraud. It was the political elite (mostly right wing) and the banking sector that committed said fraud and not the Greek people and that is why the Greek people are rebelling against the sitting socialist government that is trying to fix the problem.

The other countries in Europe also have debt.. but unsustainable? With the exception of Ireland and maybe Portugal, hell no.

So freaking what if Italy has 125% debt vs GDP? They have had it before and frankly have not been under 80% for many many many decades. That debt is majority owned by... the Italian people! Italy is a massive economy, one of the worlds biggest exporters and has a ton of potential considering the structural problems hampering growth. Fix those problems and watch Italy go.

Now I ask you this.. what countries other than Greece, Ireland and Portugal, have "debt problems"? France? Germany? UK? Denmark? Belgium? Holland? Austria? which ones?

:lol: the problem is definitely Greece, but it's where the Greeks decided to vote themselves lavish entitlements, insane leisure, and then not have any kids to pay for it all.

You and your ****ing entitlement ****. It is a load of horse crap that is deflecting away from the real reasons.... lax tax collecting. You cant cut your way out of a problem like this (and the US deficit problems) but need to up your income. And in Greece's case, the tax collecting system is pathetic and can be compared to Somalia's. But as long as the Greek people are royally pissed at the political elite and the bankers, then they will not cooperate one bit in fixing their economy as long as it is the "usual suspects" running the show.

And like it or not, NO European will ever vote in anyone that wants to turn their country into the heartless ME society like the USA. Yes we want our UHC, and pension systems and so on and are willing to pay for it and do pay for it.

Now if it had not been for your countries cluster****ing the world economy in a debt fuelled decade, then we would not be discussing European "debt problems"... considering debt levels with a few exceptions have not gone up that much the last 5 years let alone the last decade+. That is the dirty little secret in all this... why is it that sovereign debt is now all of a sudden a huge problem when it was not 20 years ago when the debt levels were similar... could it be that it was European's who outed your little pyramid scheme?

So answer me... why is it suddenly a problem? Is it reality, economically or maybe... is it all just political? Wanna bet that the problem goes away when and if the GOP wins the White House? After all it was Cheney who laughed off deficits and debt ....
 
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