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Thread: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

  1. #31
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    Re: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Again no you are wrong. It comes down to that the Greek government lied to the people period. Yes they had many people drawing off the system, so what..
    well, Pete, the "so what" is that when you have too many people drawing from a system and not enough people to pay into a system, that system is unsustainable. not "unsustainable" in the new political-parlance-everything-is-eventually-unsustainable. unsustainable in the immediate fast-moving-object-meets-a-stronger-wall sense.

    the problem was the lax tax system which the Greek Governments refused to deal with.
    so the problem was that the greek people didn't want to pay taxes, but did want lavish free goodies... and that's the fault of the evil banks.

    got it.


    It has been a known problem for decades, but nothing has been done by the politicians. You can hardly blame the people for the inactions of the politicians
    actually yes i can - not only is Greece a democracy, but the argument that you are making is that the greek people cannot be blamed for the fact that the greek government did not regulate the greek people....

    Had the Greek people gotten the truth, then the pressure on their politicians to fix the problem would have been huge...
    yeah, because if there is one thing recent history teaches, it is that people rush to give up free goodies.

    LOL no you have not. America has never been debt free.
    care to make a bet?

    in fact America has defaulted a few times.
    two, three possibly spring to mind.

    You especially have not been debt free this and the last century
    true.

    [quote]Demographics is just an excuse. Societies adapt over time making demographics a bull**** excuse.[/qutoe]

    sorry, but no. you can't "adapt' around there not being enough people.

    And every country has demographics against them even the US. Only reason the US has 2.01 brith rate is because of the Hispanic population, which many want to kick out.
    also true.

    in reality we have yet to see such a situation.
    perhaps you have heard of the Roman Empire? the population of rome fell by more than 3/4ths in the space of a single century.

    Even the Japanese who have had very low birth rates for many many decades, are doing just fine...
    HAH!

    You are miss-informed. Greek retirement age is not 55. Certain jobs have a lower retirement age yes, but the average Greek retirement age is 65
    actually it's 61.

    Those that retire before that, retire on early retirement, which is set at 57. Could it be set up?Sure and it has and will.. hell they are banning early retirement in Greece last I looked.
    and the people are willingly happily acceeding to this as necessary for fiscal survival? last i checked they were apoplectic.

    And you dont understand what the Greek people are rebelling against.
    sure - they are protesting the evil germans and the evil government, who don't want to and can't finance their free goodies anymore.

    LOL have you even been following the whole crisis? Demographics is just a lame excuse period.
    demographics is the reality; and it's why much of europe is screwed.

    So you are saying that Australia and China are cluster****ed? Not to mention Canada, Switzerland, Estonia, South Korea and the UK is close to being screwed... not to mention the US...?
    to varying degrees, yes. most especially the United States (for whom there is no possible cushion). Japan, as a nation as we know her, is definitely doomed. China is doomed to be limited long term as well, though her crises will be a huge number of men for whom they have no women before it becomes aging.

    You are not at replacement fertility rate
    we border it - but you are right it's an issue, and it's one of the reasons why our entitlements, as well, cannot sustain themselves. baby boomers did not have enough kids to pay for the benefits they then voted for themselves.

    Again you fail to understand the ****ing problem. Tax evasion in Greece is 25%+ of taxpayers. That is a HUGE number.. if those people actually paid their taxes, then Greece would have a surplus!
    sure. and you can score people statically, too

    Your demographics excuse is getting more and more bull**** at every turn since it is a theory that cant be proved.
    dude, it's basic math. multiplication tables have been around for some time now.

    It does not take into account a sudden rise in birthrates
    which A) are exceedingly unlikely to happen and B) wouldn't have positive effects for at least two and a half decades.

    immigration
    which was supposed to be Europe's answer.... but then they made the welfare state available to the immigrants also, and so now they often have a higher incident of use than the original natives.

    which hasn't stopped them from having kids. the large muslim populations in Europe are indeed producing follow-on generations, to replace the ones Europeans never had themselves.

    changes to the political and social system and so on and so on. For one, the fertility rate of the US is not at replacement value and yet your population is growing (minus immigration)...
    our fertility rate is on replacement rate - and we do grow through immigration, naturalization, and extending the lifespan of our elderly.

    Fact is, the Greek society could function with a few tweaks, if the bloody Greeks did not evade taxes en mass.
    irrespective of if you think that solves the fact that a shrinking populace of new payers eventually collapses any ponzi scheme; how long do you see the Germans willing to pay through the nose to cover that? i'm thinking, not terribly long. gonna be interesting to watch the rebirth of semi-nationalism in europe.

    Because it is the rich business owners and bankers that are primarily avoiding to pay taxes!
    25% of Greeks (your numbers) are rich business owners and bankers?

    They are also the ones who are in power in government giving favours to each other and selling state assets to each other on the cheap.. The problem is not the people in general, but the 25% or so that avoid paying taxes ... who happen also to be part of the political elite. The Greek people are fully aware they have to change their ways, but they refuse to do so as long as the rich and bankers are sucking the life out of society with their criminal actions.
    funny how it's criminal when a rich guy does it...

    irrespective. welcome to the future

    incidentally, what do you blame the riots in France on? evil French bankers?

    Who is it the Greeks are "rioting" against.. and where? Government buildings, political party buildings and in front of banks.
    and it's public workers rioting. nothing like losing an entitlement to send someone to the streets.

    Sorry but that is not an answer.. that is a ideology answer of the US right. Debt was not a problem until 2008 when Obama took over the White House and the GOP was out in the dark.
    that is incorrect - the future collapse of our entitlement programs was a huge problem long before first Bush and then Obama put our pace to collapse in hyperdrive.

    If debt was a real problem, then the countries with high debt and high deficits would all be under huge pressure to fix their problems.. but both the UK and US who have the biggest deficits and rising debt are getting cart blanc at the moment with record low interest rates on their debt.
    that is because they are seen as the temporary safe havens from those who will be screwed first. to put it into a european metaphor, the bond market is currently feeding an alligator.

  2. #32
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    Re: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

    Not pretending to be an expert on the EU...but didnt Germany make significant changes in their government and spending to fix their problems? While they support the EU fiscally, Germany doesnt feel they should be responsible for bailing everyone else out because everyone else isnt willing to fix their own problems. Personally I dont care if the EU stays together or fails...but I can see significant problems looming. I dont think the survival of the EU depends on England or Germany...it depends on what happens in Greece.

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    Re: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Actually there is a system for Eurozone countries to default... but it does not start till 2012-13 thanks to the freaking Poles who demanded a delay back in the day. That is one of the reasons that German and French politicians are playing the long delaying game.

    And I am not talking about California going bankrupt (other states would go before California), I am talking about California leaving the dollar so it is able to devalue its new currency...
    But that's what I'm saying, California would have no need to do so because it is fiscally well-integrated into the economy of the United States. So while the economic fortunes of states may vary a bit, the US has a stabilizing force in place that the EU does not: a strong central government. Sure, California COULD devalue its hypothetical new currency...but as long as the fortunes of California are correlated to the fortunes of Michigan, Texas, Florida, New York, and the others (even though their economic performance varies), it would have no need to.
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    Re: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Not pretending to be an expert on the EU...but didnt Germany make significant changes in their government and spending to fix their problems? While they support the EU fiscally, Germany doesnt feel they should be responsible for bailing everyone else out because everyone else isnt willing to fix their own problems. Personally I dont care if the EU stays together or fails...but I can see significant problems looming. I dont think the survival of the EU depends on England or Germany...it depends on what happens in Greece.
    If it depends on what happens in Greece (which I agree with), then it DOES depend on Germany. There is no hope that Greece is going to be able to pay off its debts on its own - or even organize an orderly default. Angela Merkel will have to decide which she wants more: the continued existence of the euro, or to placate her supporters by refusing to bail out Greece any more. If Germany isn't willing to pony up the cash, then the economic situation in Greece (and by extension the rest of eurozone, and by extension the rest of the world) is going to get very very ugly.

    I don't see the developed world emerging from this recession for many years. People, corporations, and (some) governments alike racked up too much debt, and it will take them years to deleverage.
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    Re: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

    The European Union itself was a good idea, and I like the concept of it. The stupid part of it it the Euro, that was an idiotic idea.
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    Re: Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

    Quote Originally Posted by Juiposa View Post
    The European Union itself was a good idea, and I like the concept of it. The stupid part of it it the Euro, that was an idiotic idea.
    I tend to agree. Maybe the euro's time will come some day, if the EU economies integrate their fiscal policy...but that time is probably not now, and certainly wasn't a decade ago when the euro went into effect.
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