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Germany 'wont give more to EU bail-out fund'

LOL it is poor governance lol.. seriously have you even followed what went wrong? The Conservative Greek government LIED to the world including their own people and American banks and financial institutions helped them in hiding the truth.. that their deficit was much larger than reported and they had off the books debt .. thanks to J.P. Morgan and Co.

:shrug: if the greek government lied, then that is on them. but that doesn't alter the fact that the reason they had to lie fundamentally comes down to the fact that they have too many people drawing off the system, and too few people paying in.

Again you have zero understanding of the situation. Countries will always have debt.... even China has over 30% debt... You can not run a country without debt, just as you cant run a company without debt.

sure you can - America has been debt free times as have plenty of nations.

however, again, the fact that they have debt is not as important as the amount of debt they have racked up trying to make up for the fact that their demographics are skewed.

pay-as-you-go retirement only works when you continue to have significantly more workers than retirees; which means that if you are going to retire your populace at 55 and watch them spend the next 25 years drawing on the system, you need them to have had a lot of kids back when they were in their twenties. Instead, most Greeks couples had 1 kid.

Now Greece committed fraud, pure and simple and will ultimately pay for said fraud. It was the political elite (mostly right wing) and the banking sector that committed said fraud and not the Greek people and that is why the Greek people are rebelling against the sitting socialist government that is trying to fix the problem.

:lol: there is no right wing government in Greece. there is only left wing and slightly-less-left-wing. and the greek people are rebelling because their easy lives with early retirements and late studenthoods is going away. honestly people, if you're a "student" until you're 27, and then you plan on retiring at 55; guess what? you're not working long enough to pay for either of those things.

The other countries in Europe also have debt.. but unsustainable? With the exception of Ireland and maybe Portugal, hell no.

it's not about the debt - the debt is just a symptom. it's about the demographics.

So freaking what if Italy has 125% debt vs GDP? They have had it before and frankly have not been under 80% for many many many decades. That debt is majority owned by... the Italian people! Italy is a massive economy, one of the worlds biggest exporters and has a ton of potential considering the structural problems hampering growth. Fix those problems and watch Italy go.

:( except that you won't because Italy's vital workforce is now living at home with mom and dad until their 30's, and there aren't even enough of those. you need a fertility rate of 2.1 to replace your populace - and no people have ever come back after dipping below a fertility rate of 1.8. Italy's fertility rate is 1.3.

Now I ask you this.. what countries other than Greece, Ireland and Portugal, have "debt problems"? France? Germany? UK? Denmark? Belgium? Holland? Austria? which ones?

take a look for yourself

You and your ****ing entitlement ****. It is a load of horse crap that is deflecting away from the real reasons.... lax tax collecting. You cant cut your way out of a problem like this (and the US deficit problems) but need to up your income.

you are correct that you need to increase income - though i'm not sure you know how to do it. however, the fact remains that, like the United States, Greece cannot tax it's way to paying for itself. when you are taxing three workers to pay for two retirees and one student; bluntly, the system is unstable, and you've created a tragedy of the commons where everyones' incentive is to get out. try to punitively tax those workers, and they will simply leave faster, and you will be worse off than you were before.

And in Greece's case, the tax collecting system is pathetic and can be compared to Somalia's. But as long as the Greek people are royally pissed at the political elite and the bankers, then they will not cooperate one bit in fixing their economy as long as it is the "usual suspects" running the show.

the greek people will continue to protest about how it's the evil bankers and whomever else no matter what "the political elite" do - its in their interest to blame someone else, and seek to place the pain on someone else.

NO European will ever vote in anyone that wants to turn their country into the heartless ME society like the USA. Yes we want our UHC, and pension systems and so on and are willing to pay for it and do pay for it.

Greek rioters seem to disagree.

So answer me... why is it suddenly a problem?

it's not - this train wreck has been building for decades. and is still building in plenty of other nations, including the US.
 
Anyone ever notice that the economies of different places with different people vastly vary? Oh yes, vastly vary. (LOL) I can go to a coke machine in the south, and buy a can of coke for 60 cents, or something like that. I can find that SAME coke machine in the north east, and it'll be an even dollar. Apply that principle to just about everything. And that is within the SAME country, with a central bank, and central governing body laying down the law for every state.

What was everyone expecting to happen, sharing a currency, but not a governing body?
 
In the end Germany, France, and the rest of the Eurozone have only seen huge benefits from having the common currency and going back to national currencies would be economic sucide for most countries, which is why the Euro will stay. Now Greece might get kicked out, but that does not change the fact that the Euro is here to stay regardless of what the Anglo-American anti European talking heads say.

It would be like saying that California would leave the US dollar to form its own currency so that it could devalue its way out of its economic problems... how realistic is that?

The difference is that California is well-integrated into the economy of the rest of the United States, whereas that isn't true for Greece. If California were to go bankrupt, for example, the US federal government would still send out Social Security and Medicare checks to Californians, it would still send money to California for highways and schools, etc. There is no analogous system in place for the eurozone to handle a Greek default. If the EU was something akin to the United States of Europe, where the European government was responsible for a very large percentage of the total taxation and spending, then it wouldn't be as big of a problem.

I don't know if the eurozone will fall apart, but as I see it, it only has two choices: Go big (integrate fiscal policies across nations and become the United States of Europe), or go small (kick the weak members out and limit the eurozone to Germany/Netherlands/Finland/Austria/France.)
 
The difference is that California is well-integrated into the economy of the rest of the United States, whereas that isn't true for Greece. If California were to go bankrupt, for example, the US federal government would still send out Social Security and Medicare checks to Californians, it would still send money to California for highways and schools, etc. There is no analogous system in place for the eurozone to handle a Greek default. If the EU was something akin to the United States of Europe, where the European government was responsible for a very large percentage of the total taxation and spending, then it wouldn't be as big of a problem.

Actually there is a system for Eurozone countries to default... but it does not start till 2012-13 thanks to the freaking Poles who demanded a delay back in the day. That is one of the reasons that German and French politicians are playing the long delaying game.

And I am not talking about California going bankrupt (other states would go before California), I am talking about California leaving the dollar so it is able to devalue its new currency...
 
:shrug: if the greek government lied, then that is on them. but that doesn't alter the fact that the reason they had to lie fundamentally comes down to the fact that they have too many people drawing off the system, and too few people paying in.

Again no you are wrong. It comes down to that the Greek government lied to the people period. Yes they had many people drawing off the system, so what.. the problem was the lax tax system which the Greek Governments refused to deal with. It has been a known problem for decades, but nothing has been done by the politicians. You can hardly blame the people for the inactions of the politicians when the politicians never mentioned the true state of the government finances. Had the Greek people gotten the truth, then the pressure on their politicians to fix the problem would have been huge... just as it is in all countries that have problems of some kind. Instead the Greek people were told that there was no major problems...One of the grievance of the people against the politicians is the politicians corruption (both left and right)... Greece has had on the books for over a decade a privatising program of state assets...very few assets have been privatised and those that have, have gone to "friends" of the sitting government...

sure you can - America has been debt free times as have plenty of nations.

LOL no you have not. America has never been debt free.. in fact America has defaulted a few times. You especially have not been debt free this and the last century. Hell your whole country started on debt...

however, again, the fact that they have debt is not as important as the amount of debt they have racked up trying to make up for the fact that their demographics are skewed.

Demographics is just an excuse. Societies adapt over time making demographics a bull**** excuse. And every country has demographics against them even the US. Only reason the US has 2.01 brith rate is because of the Hispanic population, which many want to kick out.

pay-as-you-go retirement only works when you continue to have significantly more workers than retirees; which means that if you are going to retire your populace at 55 and watch them spend the next 25 years drawing on the system, you need them to have had a lot of kids back when they were in their twenties. Instead, most Greeks couples had 1 kid.

Yes in text books.. in reality we have yet to see such a situation. Even the Japanese who have had very low birth rates for many many decades, are doing just fine...

:lol: there is no right wing government in Greece. there is only left wing and slightly-less-left-wing.

Utter bull****. The Greek Conservatives might not be Tea Party and wacko GOP right wing material, but they are on the right wing of the political sphere. You seem to forget that the US "right wing politician" is often far far right in the real world.

and the greek people are rebelling because their easy lives with early retirements and late studenthoods is going away. honestly people, if you're a "student" until you're 27, and then you plan on retiring at 55; guess what? you're not working long enough to pay for either of those things.

You are miss-informed. Greek retirement age is not 55. Certain jobs have a lower retirement age yes, but the average Greek retirement age is 65. Those that retire before that, retire on early retirement, which is set at 57. Could it be set up?Sure and it has and will.. hell they are banning early retirement in Greece last I looked.

And you dont understand what the Greek people are rebelling against... if you seriously think that the Greek people rebelling have "easy lives" then you are either delusional or brainwashed by Anglo-American media who rarely stick to the facts when it comes to Europe.

it's not about the debt - the debt is just a symptom. it's about the demographics.

LOL have you even been following the whole crisis? Demographics is just a lame excuse period.

:( except that you won't because Italy's vital workforce is now living at home with mom and dad until their 30's, and there aren't even enough of those. you need a fertility rate of 2.1 to replace your populace - and no people have ever come back after dipping below a fertility rate of 1.8. Italy's fertility rate is 1.3.

So you are saying that Australia and China are cluster****ed? Not to mention Canada, Switzerland, Estonia, South Korea and the UK is close to being screwed... not to mention the US...? You are not at replacement fertility rate ...

you are correct that you need to increase income - though i'm not sure you know how to do it. however, the fact remains that, like the United States, Greece cannot tax it's way to paying for itself. when you are taxing three workers to pay for two retirees and one student; bluntly, the system is unstable, and you've created a tragedy of the commons where everyones' incentive is to get out. try to punitively tax those workers, and they will simply leave faster, and you will be worse off than you were before.

Again you fail to understand the ****ing problem. Tax evasion in Greece is 25%+ of taxpayers. That is a HUGE number.. if those people actually paid their taxes, then Greece would have a surplus!

Your demographics excuse is getting more and more bull**** at every turn since it is a theory that cant be proved. It does not take into account a sudden rise in birthrates, immigration, changes to the political and social system and so on and so on. For one, the fertility rate of the US is not at replacement value and yet your population is growing (minus immigration)...

Fact is, the Greek society could function with a few tweaks, if the bloody Greeks did not evade taxes en mass.

the greek people will continue to protest about how it's the evil bankers and whomever else no matter what "the political elite" do - its in their interest to blame someone else, and seek to place the pain on someone else.

Because it is the rich business owners and bankers that are primarily avoiding to pay taxes!!!! They are also the ones who are in power in government giving favours to each other and selling state assets to each other on the cheap.. The problem is not the people in general, but the 25% or so that avoid paying taxes ... who happen also to be part of the political elite. The Greek people are fully aware they have to change their ways, but they refuse to do so as long as the rich and bankers are sucking the life out of society with their criminal actions.

Greek rioters seem to disagree.

Greeks riot over loosing last nights football game. And take off your American glasses... they are tainting your world view.

Who is it the Greeks are "rioting" against.. and where? Government buildings, political party buildings and in front of banks.

it's not - this train wreck has been building for decades. and is still building in plenty of other nations, including the US.

Sorry but that is not an answer.. that is a ideology answer of the US right. Debt was not a problem until 2008 when Obama took over the White House and the GOP was out in the dark. Then "debt" became a major political problem. If debt was a real problem, then the countries with high debt and high deficits would all be under huge pressure to fix their problems.. but both the UK and US who have the biggest deficits and rising debt are getting cart blanc at the moment with record low interest rates on their debt.
 
Again no you are wrong. It comes down to that the Greek government lied to the people period. Yes they had many people drawing off the system, so what..

well, Pete, the "so what" is that when you have too many people drawing from a system and not enough people to pay into a system, that system is unsustainable. not "unsustainable" in the new political-parlance-everything-is-eventually-unsustainable. unsustainable in the immediate fast-moving-object-meets-a-stronger-wall sense.

the problem was the lax tax system which the Greek Governments refused to deal with.

so the problem was that the greek people didn't want to pay taxes, but did want lavish free goodies... and that's the fault of the evil banks.

got it.


It has been a known problem for decades, but nothing has been done by the politicians. You can hardly blame the people for the inactions of the politicians

actually yes i can - not only is Greece a democracy, but the argument that you are making is that the greek people cannot be blamed for the fact that the greek government did not regulate the greek people....

Had the Greek people gotten the truth, then the pressure on their politicians to fix the problem would have been huge...

yeah, because if there is one thing recent history teaches, it is that people rush to give up free goodies.

LOL no you have not. America has never been debt free.

care to make a bet?

in fact America has defaulted a few times.

two, three possibly spring to mind.

You especially have not been debt free this and the last century

true.

Demographics is just an excuse. Societies adapt over time making demographics a bull**** excuse.[/qutoe]

:lol: sorry, but no. you can't "adapt' around there not being enough people.

And every country has demographics against them even the US. Only reason the US has 2.01 brith rate is because of the Hispanic population, which many want to kick out.

also true.

in reality we have yet to see such a situation.

perhaps you have heard of the Roman Empire? the population of rome fell by more than 3/4ths in the space of a single century.

Even the Japanese who have had very low birth rates for many many decades, are doing just fine...

HAH!

You are miss-informed. Greek retirement age is not 55. Certain jobs have a lower retirement age yes, but the average Greek retirement age is 65

actually it's 61.

Those that retire before that, retire on early retirement, which is set at 57. Could it be set up?Sure and it has and will.. hell they are banning early retirement in Greece last I looked.

and the people are willingly happily acceeding to this as necessary for fiscal survival? last i checked they were apoplectic.

And you dont understand what the Greek people are rebelling against.

sure - they are protesting the evil germans and the evil government, who don't want to and can't finance their free goodies anymore.

LOL have you even been following the whole crisis? Demographics is just a lame excuse period.

demographics is the reality; and it's why much of europe is screwed.

So you are saying that Australia and China are cluster****ed? Not to mention Canada, Switzerland, Estonia, South Korea and the UK is close to being screwed... not to mention the US...?

to varying degrees, yes. most especially the United States (for whom there is no possible cushion). Japan, as a nation as we know her, is definitely doomed. China is doomed to be limited long term as well, though her crises will be a huge number of men for whom they have no women before it becomes aging.

You are not at replacement fertility rate

we border it - but you are right it's an issue, and it's one of the reasons why our entitlements, as well, cannot sustain themselves. baby boomers did not have enough kids to pay for the benefits they then voted for themselves.

Again you fail to understand the ****ing problem. Tax evasion in Greece is 25%+ of taxpayers. That is a HUGE number.. if those people actually paid their taxes, then Greece would have a surplus!

:lol: sure. and you can score people statically, too :)

Your demographics excuse is getting more and more bull**** at every turn since it is a theory that cant be proved.

:lol: dude, it's basic math. multiplication tables have been around for some time now.

It does not take into account a sudden rise in birthrates

which A) are exceedingly unlikely to happen and B) wouldn't have positive effects for at least two and a half decades.

immigration

which was supposed to be Europe's answer.... but then they made the welfare state available to the immigrants also, and so now they often have a higher incident of use than the original natives.

which hasn't stopped them from having kids. the large muslim populations in Europe are indeed producing follow-on generations, to replace the ones Europeans never had themselves.

changes to the political and social system and so on and so on. For one, the fertility rate of the US is not at replacement value and yet your population is growing (minus immigration)...

our fertility rate is on replacement rate - and we do grow through immigration, naturalization, and extending the lifespan of our elderly.

Fact is, the Greek society could function with a few tweaks, if the bloody Greeks did not evade taxes en mass.

irrespective of if you think that solves the fact that a shrinking populace of new payers eventually collapses any ponzi scheme; how long do you see the Germans willing to pay through the nose to cover that? i'm thinking, not terribly long. gonna be interesting to watch the rebirth of semi-nationalism in europe.

Because it is the rich business owners and bankers that are primarily avoiding to pay taxes!

25% of Greeks (your numbers) are rich business owners and bankers?

They are also the ones who are in power in government giving favours to each other and selling state assets to each other on the cheap.. The problem is not the people in general, but the 25% or so that avoid paying taxes ... who happen also to be part of the political elite. The Greek people are fully aware they have to change their ways, but they refuse to do so as long as the rich and bankers are sucking the life out of society with their criminal actions.

funny how it's criminal when a rich guy does it...

irrespective. welcome to the future :)

incidentally, what do you blame the riots in France on? evil French bankers?

Who is it the Greeks are "rioting" against.. and where? Government buildings, political party buildings and in front of banks.

and it's public workers rioting. nothing like losing an entitlement to send someone to the streets.

Sorry but that is not an answer.. that is a ideology answer of the US right. Debt was not a problem until 2008 when Obama took over the White House and the GOP was out in the dark.

that is incorrect - the future collapse of our entitlement programs was a huge problem long before first Bush and then Obama put our pace to collapse in hyperdrive.

If debt was a real problem, then the countries with high debt and high deficits would all be under huge pressure to fix their problems.. but both the UK and US who have the biggest deficits and rising debt are getting cart blanc at the moment with record low interest rates on their debt.

that is because they are seen as the temporary safe havens from those who will be screwed first. to put it into a european metaphor, the bond market is currently feeding an alligator.
 
Not pretending to be an expert on the EU...but didnt Germany make significant changes in their government and spending to fix their problems? While they support the EU fiscally, Germany doesnt feel they should be responsible for bailing everyone else out because everyone else isnt willing to fix their own problems. Personally I dont care if the EU stays together or fails...but I can see significant problems looming. I dont think the survival of the EU depends on England or Germany...it depends on what happens in Greece.
 
Actually there is a system for Eurozone countries to default... but it does not start till 2012-13 thanks to the freaking Poles who demanded a delay back in the day. That is one of the reasons that German and French politicians are playing the long delaying game.

And I am not talking about California going bankrupt (other states would go before California), I am talking about California leaving the dollar so it is able to devalue its new currency...

But that's what I'm saying, California would have no need to do so because it is fiscally well-integrated into the economy of the United States. So while the economic fortunes of states may vary a bit, the US has a stabilizing force in place that the EU does not: a strong central government. Sure, California COULD devalue its hypothetical new currency...but as long as the fortunes of California are correlated to the fortunes of Michigan, Texas, Florida, New York, and the others (even though their economic performance varies), it would have no need to.
 
Not pretending to be an expert on the EU...but didnt Germany make significant changes in their government and spending to fix their problems? While they support the EU fiscally, Germany doesnt feel they should be responsible for bailing everyone else out because everyone else isnt willing to fix their own problems. Personally I dont care if the EU stays together or fails...but I can see significant problems looming. I dont think the survival of the EU depends on England or Germany...it depends on what happens in Greece.

If it depends on what happens in Greece (which I agree with), then it DOES depend on Germany. There is no hope that Greece is going to be able to pay off its debts on its own - or even organize an orderly default. Angela Merkel will have to decide which she wants more: the continued existence of the euro, or to placate her supporters by refusing to bail out Greece any more. If Germany isn't willing to pony up the cash, then the economic situation in Greece (and by extension the rest of eurozone, and by extension the rest of the world) is going to get very very ugly.

I don't see the developed world emerging from this recession for many years. People, corporations, and (some) governments alike racked up too much debt, and it will take them years to deleverage.
 
The European Union itself was a good idea, and I like the concept of it. The stupid part of it it the Euro, that was an idiotic idea.
 
The European Union itself was a good idea, and I like the concept of it. The stupid part of it it the Euro, that was an idiotic idea.

I tend to agree. Maybe the euro's time will come some day, if the EU economies integrate their fiscal policy...but that time is probably not now, and certainly wasn't a decade ago when the euro went into effect.
 
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