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Thread: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post

    Wasn't he serving in an "advisory role" as well? This is far different. There may be additional evidence that, for purposes of secrecy, cannot be revealed at this time. We don't know all that was revealed to the White House Lawyers. Perhaps we shouldn't call them "guilty until proven innocent?"
    I understand that everything can not be released right now. It's why I said the evidence can be secret until some future date as long as it's ran through a court, not just lawyers.

    Normal legal proceedings would involve having the accused in custody, a police investigation is conducted, and the case is brought to trial where prosecution and defense attorneys may take all the time to prove their points. Only if the accused is found guilty would he be sentenced. Only if capital punishment is permitted can such a sentence be carried out and only after a round or more of appeals.

    In an extra-normal situation, a normal police investigation cannot be carried out - intelligence services (spys) must be employed - and a sentence of "guilty as charged" equates to capital punishment. It's not optimal, but if the accused poses a large enough threat, an abbreviated or extra-normal judicial system must be employed.
    I would likely be acceptable to that as long as it was done through the courts and evidence was actually presented to make the case.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Terrorists operating in foreign land. I just think it is mind bending that people make the distinction that...welll...sure...kill the terrorist to the left of him, and kill the terrorist to the right of him...but...not...him...
    You seem to refuse to acknowledge the actual arguements of the situation and instead create something that in your own mind that makes sense to you. Nobody argued that he shouldn't be killed.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    It doesn't. It would only raise questions if the individual were not a combatant and legitimate military objective. The interpretation being advanced by Rep. Paul, among a few others, that the U.S. cannot target military objectives who happen to be U.S. citizens is so absurd that if it were applied during the American Civil War, Union forces would have been so badly hindered that the war might have gone the other way. In the case of Mr. Awlaki, he was not a civilian under the definition of the Laws of War and did not enjoy immunity from his role as a combatant.
    That is NOT his position. I also doubt you'll be able to post these "laws of war". Nobody would grant him immunity either. It's amazing that after all of these pages so many still refuse to actually address what is being argued.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    the answers are...
    yes, he's an unlawful combatant, as so declared by the administration.
    Who would you prefer make judgments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    no, Yemen has nothing to do with "their side".. according to both administrations,
    Okay. So you do not believe he was on the enemy's side? If he was not then why had he been propagandizing for them, spending his life in pursuit of their ends and furthering their cause against us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    "their side"= anywhere in the world, there are no geographical boundaries.
    Yemen, however, is not a designated battlefield, which is why the CIA was tasked to take him out
    In world war II we followed a doctrine of fighting wherever the enemy was. Do you think that is inappropriate today? Do you believe Yemen should be a sanctuary nation much like Afghanistan was prior to September 2001?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    yes, he was in a convoy of cars going to breakfast... unfortunately, the convoy wasn't targeted, he was.
    You agree he had gone to breakfast with his friends, co-terrorists and subordinates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    and no, we are not at war with "islamofascists"...
    the AUMF only give authority to conduct operations pertaining to those parties who had a hand in the terrorist acts of 9/11.. it gives no broad authorization to engage "Islamofascists","Islamocommunists" ," Islamocapitalists" or Islamo-democratic-socialists-who-lean-a little-more-to the-left-than-normal-democratic-socialists"
    And that is why you will continue to fail. If you do not view a war as a war you will apply the incorrect standards to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    but mostly, I take exception to your opinion of " I believe it's irrelevant"
    This is a matter of taste. If you do not use the correct standard, that of war, to this situation then you will always get the wrong answer. You will not be alone. There are many here wh, for whatever reason, believe that terrorism is just another criminal act.
    Last edited by Misterveritis; 10-04-11 at 09:45 AM.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    That is NOT his position. I also doubt you'll be able to post these "laws of war". Nobody would grant him immunity either. It's amazing that after all of these pages so many still refuse to actually address what is being argued.
    Let us try.

    Do you believe we are fighting a war?
    Do you believe we have an enemy in this war?
    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was a combatant?
    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was on our side?
    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was on their side?
    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was part of their leadership?
    Do you believe that in war it is acceptable to target the enemy's leadership?

    Or...
    Do you believe that only one side is fighting a war?
    Do you believe that terrorists are merely unindicted criminals?

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Let us try.

    Do you believe we are fighting a war?
    Yes, but I have no clue what our goal is.

    Do you believe we have an enemy in this war?
    There are people who would do harm to us if they could.

    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was a combatant?
    I believe that he likely was.

    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was on our side?
    That depends on what he actually did and how you are defining "our" side. Our side also consists of the idea that people can say distasteful things.

    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was on their side?
    He was likely a what might be described as a radical muslim.

    Do you believe al-whateverhisnameis was part of their leadership?
    I don't know.

    Do you believe that in war it is acceptable to target the enemy's leadership?
    Sure. There are more than one way to do that. Once again, and I imagine I will have to do it again and again. The problem was NOT that he was targeted. Can we not get passed this? I am NOT argueing against targeting him.

    Or...
    Do you believe that only one side is fighting a war?
    Do you believe that terrorists are merely unindicted criminals?
    You know exactly what my position is. Is it the same as killing OBL? No, but you know that. You refuse to acknowledge he was an American citizen
    with Constitutional protections.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    [QUOTE=1Perry;1059846385]That is NOT his position. [/quote

    At last check it is his position. The article posted at the beginning of this thread stated:

    Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul is condemning the Obama administration for killing an American born al-Qaida operative without a trial.
    To keep this as simple as possible:

    1. A key test is whether Mr. Awlaki was a criminal or a combatant.
    - If he was the former, then trial by jury is among the basic rights he enjoys.
    - If he was the latter, then one has to refer to the section of the Constitution concerning the President's war powers.

    2. To answer the first question, one has to determine whether he was, in fact, a civilian.
    -The U.S. has engaged in numerous wars and it adheres to the principles set forth in the body of instruments that accumulated over time known as the "Laws of War."
    - The U.S. also has precedent where it targeted homegrown combatants on its own soil (U.S. Civil War)
    - Under the Laws of War, Mr. Awlaki was not a civilian. He was serving a "command-and-control function" in organizing attacks against the U.S. and was a legitimate military objective.

    3. As Mr. Awlaki was a legitimate military objective, the question then becomes whether the Constitution compels the President to grant some kind of immunity that spares any class of combatants from the full consequences of their role as combatants.
    - The President's authority as Commander in Chief is broad. No such limitations are set forth. No such limitations are imposed on Congress' war-related authority either.

    In short, the military operation was lawful, both from the perspective of the U.S. Constitution and under international law. Therefore, it is very unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Court would agree to hear a case that is so clear-cut on Constitutional issues and it is even more unlikely that Congress would muster impeachment proceedings against the President.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I most certainly think that it's something to be concerned and wary of. There used to be methods by which this was done, writ of reprisal (a power properly belonging to Congress); but we don't and now one man can apparently order the execution of American citizens and no one will bat an eye. Who else is so evil we don't care what the government does? Child molesters? Murderers? Rapists?

    There is always concern when government becomes unconstrained.
    Two out of three you are correct on. I bolded the crimes that you listed that the gov't has complete unconstrained authority to enact whatever laws they want to. And what's worse, the citizenry doesn't oppose it. Nothing like being uprooted out of your home you've lived in for 25 years after a new residency law doesn't allow you to live within 2500 feet of a school, when your "child molestation" crime is you having sex with your girlfriend when she was 16 and you were 18 and it was 20 years ago.

    But of course, that is a derailment of the thread. But I thought it was interesting that you actually listed 2 out of 3 crimes that indeed do have unregulated laws posed against them, most of them ex-post facto, or "after the fact". Which makes it unconstitutional.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    There is war where matters of guilt and innocence are not considered.
    There is criminality where those are of exceptional importance. When you confuse one with the other you get the wrong result. So it is here.
    I recognize no war without a Declaration of War. Otherwise it's police action, which is highly suspect to start with.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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