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Thread: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    i'd be happy with judicial review of the evidence that supposedly exists in regards to Americans on the list.

    after researching a bit.. it seems we have no legal mechanism for trials in absentia ( whether we should or not is a separate debate, I think)... but there has to be some sort of alternative to simple unchecked executive power when it comes to targeted killings of American citizens.
    War crimes trial.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    None of which addresses the fact that he could have been tried which would have ended most of this discussion.
    When you consistently apply the wrong standard you will consistently get the wrong answer.
    There is war, where we do not care about guilt and innocence. We care to win or to avoid defeat.
    And there is criminality where we do care about guilt and innocence.

    You are judging a war action through the lens of criminal justice. And that is why you err.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    War crimes trial.
    I dunno, it seems SCOTUS had ruled the trials in absentia are a no-no.
    unless you are talking about an international war crimes trial... there is plenty of precedent for in absentia convictions there.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    War crimes trial.
    Here you have stumbled onto the truth. But notice how you just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and wander on as if nothing important happened.

    It is a war. He is not a criminal within a criminal justice system. He was an unlawful enemy combatant, a propagandist for the enemy side of this war. But of course you know that.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    That is not how our legal system works nor when time has passed will anyone agree that is how they want it to work. The CIA does not get to decide which U.S. citizens get to live and which ones get to die.

    In our justice system you are innocent until proven guilty. It would have been very easy to have proven his guilt if all that is claimed is fact.
    There you go again !! Confusing a criminal proceeding with a military action. So long as you embrace this erroneous perspective, you will be as a horse with blinders on.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    When you consistently apply the wrong standard you will consistently get the wrong answer.
    There is war, where we do not care about guilt and innocence. We care to win or to avoid defeat.
    And there is criminality where we do care about guilt and innocence.

    You are judging a war action through the lens of criminal justice. And that is why you err.
    I view it through the eyes that ALL citizens have Constitutional rights and that we do not want to go down the road of the government in any form deciding who is a citizen and who isn't. At one time in our history women would lose their rights by marrying a foriegner. People would lose their rights if they held dual citizenship and voted in another country.

    It isn't about this person. It's about the big picture. I care less that this guy is dead in the big picture. I disagree with the death penalty but this would be a rare exemption IF he had been found guilty.

    We do not want to give the government the ability to decide who gets due process and who doesn't as a citizen. It was noted that in cases like this, the terrorists do win. When we give up our rights, that is a win for terrorism.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    War crimes trial.
    To parrot what H said, but even a "War crimes trial" is about crimes against international rules of war. It is well after the targeting phase.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I dunno, it seems SCOTUS had ruled the trials in absentia are a no-no.
    unless you are talking about an international war crimes trial... there is plenty of precedent for in absentia convictions there.
    Let's argue that it can not be done. It's why people like Paul need to bring things like this up because the ramifications go far beyond this case.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I view it through the eyes that ALL citizens have Constitutional rights and that we do not want to go down the road of the government in any form deciding who is a citizen and who isn't. At one time in our history women would lose their rights by marrying a foriegner. People would lose their rights if they held dual citizenship and voted in another country.

    It isn't about this person. It's about the big picture. I care less that this guy is dead in the big picture. I disagree with the death penalty but this would be a rare exemption IF he had been found guilty.

    We do not want to give the government the ability to decide who gets due process and who doesn't as a citizen. It was noted that in cases like this, the terrorists do win. When we give up our rights, that is a win for terrorism.
    And the Executive has a Constitutional mandate. Its that "Enemies, foreign and domestic" thing. Al-Dirtbag was the former, btw. Yemen, not New Mexico.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I view it through the eyes that ALL citizens have Constitutional rights...

    It isn't about this person. It's about the big picture. I care less that this guy is dead in the big picture. I disagree with the death penalty but this would be a rare exemption IF he had been found guilty.

    We do not want to give the government the ability to decide who gets due process and who doesn't as a citizen. It was noted that in cases like this, the terrorists do win. When we give up our rights, that is a win for terrorism.
    You are right. It is not about an individual. It is about whether or not we view war as a criminal proceeding (something new) or as a war with its own rules.

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