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Thread: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i really couldn't care less what the courts have ruled in this case - the citizen retains his sovereignty, which means he is free to dispose of his citizenship as he see's fit with or without the courts' approval. al-Awlaki chose to remove his, and that was his right. then he chose to declare war on the US, and that was his right too. so we chose to kill him, and that was our right as well.
    He never chose to remove his rights as a citizen. Just because you feel he is no longer deserving of the protections doesn't count. This is the same position the Bush administration took concerning Padilla and the courts ruled he was wrong.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It isn't. It's about the big picture whether or not the United States can kill citizens without due process.
    Back in April 2010, the President added this guy to the CIA Kill List at their specific request. That was reported in the news. What? Oh, well. The people's right to know, I guess. The ACLU and his father filed suit on the specific grounds that it was illegal to target an American citizen.

    The U.S. District Court threw the case out, and the lawsuit's dead. The court's position was that it was not up to the courts to decide if an American citizen was an enemy combatant; it was up to the President, in this case.

    "There are circumstances in which the (president's) unilateral decision to kill a U.S. citizen overseas is constitutionally committed to the political branches and judicially unreviewable," U.S. District Judge John Bates concluded last year.

    Read more: Some question president's power to kill a US citizen overseas - KansasCity.com
    Had al-Awlaki been in the battlefield "shooting back," he would have been a legal target. The United States (and the rest of the world) has never taken the position that an enemy combatant must be in the battlefield to be targetted. He was not targetted for being a propogandist, but because he had gone operational.

    From the Director of National Intelligence last year:

    Blair's public testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence in February 2010 amounted to the first confirmation that the Obama administration had procedures in place to lethally target Americans. The officials can cite, in part, a 1942 Supreme Court case in which justices reasoned that the U.S. citizenship of an enemy belligerent "does not relieve him from the consequences" of war.

    Read more: Some question president's power to kill a US citizen overseas - KansasCity.com
    I'm quite confident that this was amply reviewed beforehand -- by the US District Court and Congressional Hearings. The check-and-balance in this instance would be impeachment, and that is not going to happen.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    He never chose to remove his rights as a citizen. Just because you feel he is no longer deserving of the protections doesn't count. This is the same position the Bush administration took concerning Padilla and the courts ruled he was wrong.
    I do not believe it the same at all. All issues concerning Bush and combatants, etc., had to do with their rights once in US custody. The "due process" afforded in custody.

    Were Al-Dirtbag in custody, or it had been deemed that he could have easily been taken into custody, then this issue has more traction. But those things did not occur.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 10-01-11 at 10:59 AM.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Back in April 2010, the President added this guy to the CIA Kill List at their specific request. That was reported in the news. What? Oh, well. The people's right to know, I guess. The ACLU and his father filed suit on the specific grounds that it was illegal to target an American citizen.

    The U.S. District Court threw the case out, and the lawsuit's dead. The court's position was that it was not up to the courts to decide if an American citizen was an enemy combatant; it was up to the President, in this case.
    The USSC has ruled otherwise.

    Had al-Awlaki been in the battlefield "shooting back," he would have been a legal target. The United States (and the rest of the world) has never taken the position that an enemy combatant must be in the battlefield to be targetted. He was not targetted for being a propogandist, but because he had gone operational.
    It would be a different question if he had been killed while fighting with the enemy as opposed to being specifically targeted for assassination.

    I'm quite confident that this was amply reviewed beforehand -- by the US District Court and Congressional Hearings. The check-and-balance in this instance would be impeachment, and that is not going to happen.
    Bush was not impeached when the courts ruled that he was wrong concerning Padilla.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I do not believe it the same at all. All issues concerning Bush and combatanats, etc., had to do with their rights once in US custody. The "due process" afforded in custody.

    Were Al-Dirtbag in custody, or it had been deemed that he could have easily been taken into custody, then this issue has more traction. But those things did not occur.
    A trial could have deemed it all moot. I would have had no problem if he had been tried with the government argueing he was a threat to the U.S. and there was no reasonable chance of capturing him.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    He never chose to remove his rights as a citizen
    indeed he did. this goes at the very root of what we believe society is. either it is sovereign individuals who choose to enter into social contract with each other, or it is not. al-awlaki declared himself in a state of war with the United States. not our fault he made that call.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-01-11 at 11:05 AM.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    This entire al-Awlaki thing is wrong and extremely dangerous for all US citizens. al-Awlaki was still as US citizen when he was killed (Was Anwar al-Awlaki still a U.S. citizen? | FP Passport). Now, the ability to kill US citizens “if strong evidence existed that an American was involved in organizing or carrying out terrorist actions against the United States or U.S. interests.” originally came from Bush (U.S. military teams, intelligence deeply involved in aiding Yemen on strikes), but this was illegal as in 1981, then-President Reagan issued an Executive Order (Executive Order 12333 - United States Intelligence Activities) which stated that "No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination. However, President Bush did it and Obama continues to do it. The serious problems come in when one takes into account 2 things: the fact that al-Awlaki was still a US citizen and therefore had rights and the fact that the President can now name anyone a terrorist.

    The fact that al-Awlaki was still a US citizen at the time of his death means that he still had the rights of an American. The Constitution (U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net) defines treason as "consist[ing] only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." We do not know whether or not al-Awlaki actually did what he was being accused of because the US government is not going to give out any of the evidence. Further, when one realizes that the US government can declare anyone a terrorist (Rounding Up U.S. Citizens Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names) such as "Anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on Bush’s [or Obama's] list of 'terrorist' organizations, or who speaks out against the government’s policies could be declared an 'unlawful enemy combatant' and imprisoned indefinitely," this means bad news for US citizens. This means that the government can declare US citizens to be terrorists, not give the information condemning them, not hold a trial to prove them innocent, and send in a drone (or whatever) to kill them. The al-Awlaki assassination is dangerous as it sets a precedent, thus from here on out, any US citizen who the government deems a terrorist and kills, the government can justify the killing by saying that the al-Awlaki assassination sets a precedent and thus it is therefore legal for the US government to kill its own citizens.

    EDIT: Also, al-Awlaki cannot lawfully be accused of treason as there must be "the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court," according to the Constitution.
    Last edited by Mr. Invisible; 10-01-11 at 11:26 AM.
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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    worth noting - that's not a full quote of Reagan's E.O. He was modifying the original "thou shalt not assasinate" executive order from Truman to include the provision that "however, any action taken in good faith by an agent on an other wise approved mission" can be considered free of the implications of Trumans original order.

    IE: we can't assassinate anyone. unless we really want to.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Again, Mr. Invisible, that is horse manure. As noted, such as SWAT teams can but a bullet through a perp's head if they deem, in the due process between their ears, that the perp poses an imminent threat to causing the death of an innocent.

    We do allow non-judicial "due process". All the time.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 10-01-11 at 11:22 AM.

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    Re: Ron Paul: US-born al-Qaida cleric 'assassinated'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Again, Mr. Invisible, that is horse manure. As noted, such as SWAT teams can but a bullet through a perp's head if they deem, in the due process between their ears, that the perp poses an imminent threat to causing the death of an innocent.

    We do allow non-judicial "due process". All the time.
    Actually it is not, but if you want to have more of your rights and liberties stripped away by the government, be my guest.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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