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Thread: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    IIRC....
    The states are taking the case to the Court. Their argument is that the law, by virtue of its very existence, violates their rights under the 10th.
    Thus, harm.

    Aside from that, so long as 4 justices agree that specific of the petition, whatever they are, warrant a review, cert can be granted..
    And the Supreme Court has rules about whether or not they will grant certiorari. They don't do it on a whim. The actual harm thing is part of their internal rules. The argument that mere existence causes harm is not one that holds actual legal merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Then the prior courts ruling will stand and the mandate is unconstituional. Easy enough.
    Except that the federal government will still attempt to enforce it. I'm sure real harm and review will happen eventually, just not until at least 2014 when the rules actually come into effect.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    You say that it doesn't affect others. I say that it does.
    It does not because it cannot. It harms only the person making the choice - and yet, you happily seek to remove it.

    I'm not going to argue about this "choice" which no one seems to make.
    You may run away from the issue at your lesure; in doing so, I accept your conession of the points that you refuse to address.

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    You do know decresed demand can lead to decreased supply as well...i.e. if only 100,000 individuals can afford cancer treatment then only a handful of cancer treatments will exist.
    So long as there is cancer, there will be demand for cancer treatment.
    That people pay for it themselves means there will always be competition in the market.
    Competition always reduces prices and improves quality.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 10-04-11 at 04:35 PM.

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    So long as there is cancer, there will be demand for cancer treatment.
    That people pay for it themselves means there will always be competition in the market.
    Competition always reduces prices and improves quality.
    Demand requires someone willing to purchase or able to at a certain price. I don't think you understand the demand curve. Just because demand is there at a lower price does not mean the price drops. Production increases due to innovation will drop the price meaning there is additional demand. Price drives demand (ability to pay and want to purchase at a certain price) not the other way around.

    Supply and demand is perhaps one of the most fundamental concepts of economics and it is the backbone of a market economy. Demand refers to how much (quantity) of a product or service is desired by buyers. The quantity demanded is the amount of a product people are willing to buy at a certain price; the relationship between price and quantity demanded is known as the demand relationship. Supply represents how much the market can offer. The quantity supplied refers to the amount of a certain good producers are willing to supply when receiving a certain price. The correlation between price and how much of a good or service is supplied to the market is known as the supply relationship. Price, therefore, is a reflection of supply and demand.



    Read more: Economics Basics: Demand and Supply

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    It does not because it cannot. It harms only the person making the choice - and yet, you happily seek to remove it.

    You may run away from the issue at your lesure; in doing so, I accept your conession of the points that you refuse to address.
    Am I in bizarro world? Your whole idea of "choice" is fabricated on some silly "what if" scenario of a person not buying insurance then refusing healthcare when injured on the principle of not receiving a service they didn't pay for.

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Pretend YOU own a medical facility. Pretend there is no insurance, so the only way YOU get paid for services rendered, is if those customer (patients) can afford, and pay, for those services. Now, in this imaginary world, think about what is going to make the most money for yourself? Lower medical costs so that you can hit a larger demographic, thus increasing foot traffic through your door, or higher prices, appealing to the wealthy, and hoping that you can gouge them enough that with even fewer customers, you still have enough mark up on the services to make a tidy little profit. Oh, but hey, there are other guys like you out there, by the way, with THEIR own medical facilities, too, and they get their own choice on what demographic they want to appeal to. So, watch out...if you go too high on your pricing, you might find that the majority of your would be customers, wealthy or not, flock to the guy offering the same, or VERY similar services, at a reduced cost. What do YOU do? Price your services right out of the range of you would be customers, forcing you close up shop due to being in the red every month? Or, do you make sure that, regardless of your overhead costs, you keep prices in an affordable range for your customers, in order to ensure you get all the business you can?

    What insurance companies serve to do, is REMOVE those tough choices from hospitals and private practices. You see, with insurance, a customer need never look at an actual bill. You don't see signs on the highway advertising lower cost cancer treatments, because, quite frankly, none are needed. There are enough people with health insurance to invalidate the need for competitive pricing, only competitive quality.

    You want to fix health care, which is to say, make it more affordable to people who are paying out of pocket, you have to get rid of insurance companies. And that's the bottom line.

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Pretend YOU own a medical facility. Pretend there is no insurance, so the only way YOU get paid for services rendered, is if those customer (patients) can afford, and pay, for those services. Now, in this imaginary world, think about what is going to make the most money for yourself? Lower medical costs so that you can hit a larger demographic, thus increasing foot traffic through your door, or higher prices, appealing to the wealthy, and hoping that you can gouge them enough that with even fewer customers, you still have enough mark up on the services to make a tidy little profit. Oh, but hey, there are other guys like you out there, by the way, with THEIR own medical facilities, too, and they get their own choice on what demographic they want to appeal to. So, watch out...if you go too high on your pricing, you might find that the majority of your would be customers, wealthy or not, flock to the guy offering the same, or VERY similar services, at a reduced cost. What do YOU do? Price your services right out of the range of you would be customers, forcing you close up shop due to being in the red every month? Or, do you make sure that, regardless of your overhead costs, you keep prices in an affordable range for your customers, in order to ensure you get all the business you can?

    What insurance companies serve to do, is REMOVE those tough choices from hospitals and private practices. You see, with insurance, a customer need never look at an actual bill. You don't see signs on the highway advertising lower cost cancer treatments, because, quite frankly, none are needed. There are enough people with health insurance to invalidate the need for competitive pricing, only competitive quality.

    You want to fix health care, which is to say, make it more affordable to people who are paying out of pocket, you have to get rid of insurance companies. And that's the bottom line.
    This is where you and I disagree. Yes, I think it would have differences in relatively small cost procuedures or check ups. I agree it would have a difference regarding pescription drug prices. I think both of those two segments of healthcare are grossly inflated.

    I disagree that you would see a drop in the cost of expensive procedures. Knee replacement surgeries, chemotheropy etc because there are input prices that would not adjust with demand. If a machine costs me a lot of money, to use, only has a certain amount of uses then I would never price it at a level below my cost. That is my argument, that relative inexpensive (for the supplier of the service) services would go down. Expensive services which requires 3expensive machinary would not drop to a sufficient extent where more people have access than do now with insurance.

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    No change is necessary. You are never compelled to receive goods and services you do not/can not pay for. Someone who chooses to only receive the goods and services he pays for refuses goods/services he cannot.
    The rightwing health care policy - DIE QUICKLY
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Am I in bizarro world? Your whole idea of "choice" is fabricated on some silly "what if" scenario of a person not buying insurance then refusing healthcare when injured on the principle of not receiving a service they didn't pay for.
    Even worse. It's based on the fictional "free market" which has never existed. In the rightwings fantasy world, the govt does not ever intervene in the market.

    There's no point in debating the deluded right
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: White House asks Supreme Court to rule on healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Pretend YOU own a medical facility. Pretend there is no insurance, so the only way YOU get paid for services rendered, is if those customer (patients) can afford, and pay, for those services. Now, in this imaginary world, think about what is going to make the most money for yourself? Lower medical costs so that you can hit a larger demographic, thus increasing foot traffic through your door, or higher prices, appealing to the wealthy, and hoping that you can gouge them enough that with even fewer customers, you still have enough mark up on the services to make a tidy little profit. Oh, but hey, there are other guys like you out there, by the way, with THEIR own medical facilities, too, and they get their own choice on what demographic they want to appeal to. So, watch out...if you go too high on your pricing, you might find that the majority of your would be customers, wealthy or not, flock to the guy offering the same, or VERY similar services, at a reduced cost. What do YOU do? Price your services right out of the range of you would be customers, forcing you close up shop due to being in the red every month? Or, do you make sure that, regardless of your overhead costs, you keep prices in an affordable range for your customers, in order to ensure you get all the business you can?

    What insurance companies serve to do, is REMOVE those tough choices from hospitals and private practices. You see, with insurance, a customer need never look at an actual bill. You don't see signs on the highway advertising lower cost cancer treatments, because, quite frankly, none are needed. There are enough people with health insurance to invalidate the need for competitive pricing, only competitive quality.

    You want to fix health care, which is to say, make it more affordable to people who are paying out of pocket, you have to get rid of insurance companies. And that's the bottom line.
    Health care is a completely inelastic product. Everyone needs it.

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