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Thread: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For all those in favor of overturning the entire thing...

    Are you also in favor of overturning the FISA Act as well as TITLE III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act? Since a large majority of the Patriot Act is updating and altering those laws to get them up to speed with the 21st century. For all the blathering about how "PATRIOT Act" is a poor name just used to make people foolishly go along with it, it seems a lot of people are mindlessly just going along with the call for "THROW IT ALL OUT" simply becuase that's the vogue, anti-establishment, "dey tuk ar freedomz!" war cry at the moment. Or is your issue actually with the notion of the government being able to perform survelliance of any kind in which case why are you sweating the new act when the old acts will still let it be done, only with glaringly large loopholes.

    If your issue was about the constitutionality, HONESTLY about the constitutionality, you'd be fighting for the unconstitutional parts to be removed. If your issue was about the invasion of privacy and power to the government, then you'd be pushing for those older laws to be repealed thus making Patriot useless because its largely building upon those other laws through amending them. However, in reality, most people are doing the exact same thing they accused lawmakers of doing due to the name PATRIOT...going along with someone because it simply is the popular sentiment being pushed without actually taking the time to fully understand or grasp it.
    I do fully understand and grasp it, and believe it is unconstitutional. And, although Bush did make some changes to the original law, this monstrosity was created under Bill Clinton.
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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What's wrong with these things:

    . . . like a library computer. . . a company-owned computer. Oh, wow!! Such an infringement!! Not.

    This?

    OMG!!! I have to provide two types of identification to open a bank account!!

    I have no problems with these. You? USA PATRIOT Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It will be far easier and more plausible to continue the march toward repealing the various questionable parts of PATRIOT to leave only the solid core than it would be to remove all of Patriot and then attempt to reimpliment all those various things.

    Removing 10% of something is easier than attempting to reinstitute 90% in the current political climate.

    Our system is structured in such a way that we can actually take a scapel to the bill; that's the method they should, and thankfully have, been taking.

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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Of course all of the arguments go into the river if you only abide by the laws.. If you're not doing anything shady I suspect the Patriot Act will never visit your doorstep? Me, I'm ok with the idea that Uncle Sam is looking out for me and mine, even if it means we have reasonable people secretly invading people privacy insodoing..





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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I do fully understand and grasp it, and believe it is unconstitutional. And, although Bush did make some changes to the original law, this monstrosity was created under Bill Clinton.
    I don't give a crap if it was created under FDR or Karl Marx himself. Seriously Dan, do you think you're going to win me over of all people by trying to throw out "oh and it was created by a Democrat".

    If it was created under Clinton, good on him. Someone should've had the foresight to think "Well golly gee, technology has advanced leaps and bounds since the 60's and 70's perhaps we should do something about it".

    If our only methods of removing unconstitutional things from a bill was removing the entire bill then I'd agree with you Dan. Thankfully, through various legislative and legal methods that is not the case. The unconstitutional parts can be removed without killing off the whole bill. Unless you feel like the ENTIRE bill is unconstitutional, in which case again I would have to ask you why you aren't screaming and holloring about the FISA Act or the 1968 Omnibus Act considering they're similar in their scope and intention.

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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Of course all of the arguments go into the river if you only abide by the laws.. If you're not doing anything shady I suspect the Patriot Act will never visit your doorstep? Me, I'm ok with the idea that Uncle Sam is looking out for me and mine, even if it means we have reasonable people secretly invading people privacy insodoing..
    Yes, people not doing wrong doing have been caught into a web of issues due to the Patriot Act. What people seem to mistakingly think however is that magically somehow PRIOR to Patriot the government NEVER was able to use loopholes or be corrupt or just make a bad judgement and do similar type of things to people.

    Whether or not it'll affect you because you are or are not doing wrong should not determine if one feels something is unconstitutional. Whether or not it matches up with the constitution should determine that. The potential for misuse should be looked at, regardless if you're law abiding or not, but the assumption of definitie wide spread misuse and the assumption that somehow there was magically no misuse before hand and would be none or significantly less simply by removing it is problematic.

    It is entirely possible ot have issues with the PATRIOT Act and be an entirely law abiding citizen. Hell, I support keeping PATRIOT, am a law abiding citizen, and still have zero issues with certain parts being removed or taken out because I feel they're damaging to constitutional freedoms.

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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, people not doing wrong doing have been caught into a web of issues due to the Patriot Act. What people seem to mistakingly think however is that magically somehow PRIOR to Patriot the government NEVER was able to use loopholes or be corrupt or just make a bad judgement and do similar type of things to people.

    Whether or not it'll affect you because you are or are not doing wrong should not determine if one feels something is unconstitutional. Whether or not it matches up with the constitution should determine that. The potential for misuse should be looked at, regardless if you're law abiding or not, but the assumption of definitie wide spread misuse and the assumption that somehow there was magically no misuse before hand and would be none or significantly less simply by removing it is problematic.

    It is entirely possible ot have issues with the PATRIOT Act and be an entirely law abiding citizen. Hell, I support keeping PATRIOT, am a law abiding citizen, and still have zero issues with certain parts being removed or taken out because I feel they're damaging to constitutional freedoms.
    Ah, but see, that's just it, Zyphlin. Information gained through chatter must be of a specific kind in order for law enforcement to act without a judges permission or (due process). Law enforcement can't say as an example knock on joe the drug dealers house because they overheard a cell conversation with john the addict. The Patriot Act took great pains to make that clear within the context of the law. The Patriot Act as it matters to national security is the ONLY time that due process can be waived and ONLY if the waiver is warranted because of imminent danger to American citizens. And, to add, even after the danger is addressed, there is still a hearing after the fact where law enforcement must justify its actions. So, due process is indeed afforded great scrutiny, but in the case of national security, it is simply done after the fact, and I might add that evidence gained prior to an actual court ordered warrant is inadmissible as evidence in a court of law.


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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Ah, but see, that's just it, Zyphlin. Information gained through chatter must be of a specific kind in order for law enforcement to act without a judges permission or (due process). Law enforcement can't say as an example knock on joe the drug dealers house because they overheard a cell conversation with john the addict. The Patriot Act took great pains to make that clear within the context of the law. The Patriot Act as it matters to national security is the ONLY time that due process can be waived and ONLY if the waiver is warranted because of imminent danger to American citizens. And, to add, even after the danger is addressed, there is still a hearing after the fact where law enforcement must justify its actions. So, due process is indeed afforded great scrutiny, but in the case of national security, it is simply done after the fact, and I might add that evidence gained prior to an actual court ordered warrant is inadmissible as evidence in a court of law.


    Tim-
    I disagree. Rights cannot be waived, under the Constitution.

    And Ben Franklin was right.
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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I disagree. Rights cannot be waived, under the Constitution.

    And Ben Franklin was right.
    With all due respect to Franklin, no, I'm sorry he was wrong in this context; besides, Franklin wasn't talking about any of the dangers we face today. Franklin was specifically referring to other types of freedom and security IIRC..


    Tim-
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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I disagree. Rights cannot be waived, under the Constitution.

    And Ben Franklin was right.
    Please, tell me the line that Ben Franklin was right about.

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    Re: Judge rules part of Patriot Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Little if any of our survelliance laws have been passed in individual segment laws. Why is it that you're not equally out there decrying the FISA Act and for overturning the entire 1968 Omnibus act? Not to mention that we're at an incredibly partisan time compared to the early 2000's and attempting to pass any of this stuff would likely be difficult not because its necessarily bad law but because it has become such a politicized propoganda fueled mess.
    You think I'm not for limiting government and revoking usurped powers just because this thread was specifically about the Patriot Act and thus I kept my answers directly related to the Patriot Act? You'd be wrong if so. Hell I still decry the State of Emergency FDR put us under in 1933 which has not once been invalidated.
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