Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 67

Thread: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

  1. #31
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,730

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    A federal judge refused Wednesday to block key parts of a closely watched Alabama law that is considered the strictest state effort to clamp down on illegal immigration, including a measure that requires immigration status checks of public school students.


    This case is going to have a big impact down the road on states immigration laws vs federal




    Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand
    Obviously opponents of the Alabama law were unsuccessful in getting this in front of the 9th...

  2. #32
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,730

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    I'll just let you guys see this Link to article

    Attachment 67116199
    The failing is with the state if they allowed this to happen while paying their citizens to be on unemployment.

  3. #33
    Sage
    AdamT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-13 @ 04:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,773

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Obviously opponents of the Alabama law were unsuccessful in getting this in front of the 9th...
    From what I've seen so far, there's a very good chance that this lower court decision will be reversed, even by a conservative Circuit Court.

  4. #34
    Student Chenoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, Alabama
    Last Seen
    10-04-11 @ 05:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    273

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Your point?

    The way the pro-illegals crowd makes it sounds its as though every farm in the country employs illegal aliens.
    Agreed

    If you re having a hard time finding labor then the wages and or benefits are not adequate.
    You didn't get what I told you. No one wants to work these jobs. They're tough. Pay is adequate, you just have to be willing to work (hard) for it. It's up to the employee how much they make. And, these are seasonal, temporary jobs.

    If a farm is in desperate need of labor then they will use what ever legally available means to do it.
    LOL - again, no one wants these jobs. They're too hard for your average Joe and they're seasonal, temporary jobs.

    I realize that dishonest people drive up somewhere and pick up people from day labor sites to work, however I did not suggest any such thing. Nor did I suggest that someone drive up to a parking hoping to pick up random people wanting to work. The foreman would drive up to a parking lot where there are people who have filled out applications and passed employment interviews and are told where to be and at what time.
    I didn't say you suggested it, I'm pointing out reality. Driving up to a parking lot where there are people who have filled out applications and passed employement interviews, etc. - in a perfect world. Who does all of this interviewing & vetting? They're seasonal, temporary jobs. Do you want this cost passed along to the consumer as well?

    But the number one reason is - no one wants to do this! Do you really think we don't put ads in the paper, word of mouth, checking around? Of course we do. And, the types of places you're talking about where you pick-up day labor, they're addicts and drunks (most of them couldn't fill out an application if their life depended on it). Sometimes we get lucky and a good high school or college student will pick part time.

    If you have a hard time finding people to work for you then the wages and or benefits are not adequate enough.
    That is not relevant. If the supply of legal labor is low then you must increase the wages and possibly add some benefits to attract legal labor.
    I'll answer this again.

    1. Pay is adequate (much better than minimum wage - you can make quite a tidy sum) if...and here's the rub...You Work For It.

    2. What you're suggesting would end up bankrupting farmers and consumers who like to eat. There is a finite amount of money to go around based on what the crop will bring in - real world. These are seasonal, temporary jobs, workers move from farm to farm. Our permanent employees do have set wages and benefits.
    Last edited by Chenoa; 09-30-11 at 11:42 AM.
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

  5. #35
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,078

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    You didn't get what I told you. No one wants to work these jobs. They're tough. Pay is adequate, you just have to be willing to work (hard) for it. It's up to the employee how much they make. And, these are seasonal, temporary jobs.



    LOL - again, no one wants these jobs. They're too hard for your average Joe and they're seasonal, temporary jobs.
    Again if you have a legal labor shortage it is because the pay is inadequate. Its called supply and demand. The supply of workers you have is low, therefore the demand for farm workers is very great, therefore the wages go up until you can actually attract a adequate supply of workers. A adequate wage implies the lowest wage you can get away with paying and still have a good supply of workers.


    I didn't say you suggested it, I'm pointing out reality. Driving up to a parking lot where there are people who have filled out applications and passed employement interviews, etc. - in a perfect world. Who does all of this interviewing & vetting?They're seasonal, temporary jobs. Do you want this cost passed along to the consumer as well?
    Are you saying that farms just let any schmuck off the street, no application, no interview no nothing? You do realize that if you want a job anywhere then you have to fill out an application, you have to go to interviews, sometimes even have a back ground check and drug test. Have you ever had a job?




    But the number one reason is - no one wants to do this!
    Its not that no one wants to do this its that no one wants to do this for the pay that is being offered.
    Do you really think we don't put ads in the paper, word of mouth, checking around? Of course we do.
    The obviously the pay is not high enough.If I lived next door to you would you mow my lawn for a dollar? **** no you wouldn't mow my lawn for a dollar


    And, the types of places you're talking about where you pick-up day labor,
    Day laborers are mostly illegals and do not fill out applications.I didn't say a day labor site.





    I'll answer this again.

    1. Pay is adequate (much better than minimum wage - you can make quite a tidy sum) if...and here's the rub...You Work For It.
    Again supply and demand dictate that you up the pay.
    2. What you're suggesting would end up bankrupting farmers and consumers who like to eat. There is a finite amount of money to go around based on what the crop will bring in - real world.

    Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper
    More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

    You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.

    The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

    The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.

    Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

    At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

    And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 hours for an acre of wheat.

    The labor-intensive nature of many crops is a key reason agriculture continues to rely on illegal workers. A report by Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center who has long studied immigration trends, estimates that 247,000 illegal immigrants were employed as "miscellaneous agricultural workers" last year — only 3.4 percent of the nation's 7.2 million illegal workers, according to Pew statistics, but 29 percent of all workers in that job category.

    Eliminating illegal farmworkers, by shrinking the pool of available labor, likely would raise wages for those who remain. Philip Martin, a professor of agricultural economics at the University of California, Davis, noted that two years after the old bracero program ended in 1964, the United Farm Workers union won a 40 percent increase for grape harvesters.

    A decade ago, two Iowa State University agricultural economists estimated that removing all illegal farmworkers would raise wages for seasonal farmworkers by 30 percent in the first couple of years, and 15 percent in the medium term.

    But supermarket prices of summer-fall fruits and vegetables, they concluded, would rise by just 6 percent in the short run — dropping to 3 percent over time, as imports took up some of the slack and some farmers mechanized their operations or shifted out of labor-intensive crops. (Winter-spring produce would be even less affected, they found, because so much already is imported.)

    If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #36
    Student Chenoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, Alabama
    Last Seen
    10-04-11 @ 05:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    273

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again if you have a legal labor shortage it is because the pay is inadequate. Its called supply and demand. The supply of workers you have is low, therefore the demand for farm workers is very great, therefore the wages go up until you can actually attract a adequate supply of workers. A adequate wage implies the lowest wage you can get away with paying and still have a good supply of workers.
    Wages are as high as we can get them. Let me repeat this, there are no native workers. This is hard, hard work. Americans don't like it - it's tough work. Farmers are not going to bankrupt over low-skilled, seasonal labor.

    Are you saying that farms just let any schmuck off the street, no application, no interview no nothing? You do realize that if you want a job anywhere then you have to fill out an application, you have to go to interviews, sometimes even have a back ground check and drug test. Have you ever had a job?
    Yes, permanent (and temporary jobs) that involve office work, clerking, etc. This is not that. This is low skilled, seasonal, temporary work. I don't see your problem in understanding this.

    Have you ever worked anywhere other than McDonalds? Your silly question get a silly question in return.

    Its not that no one wants to do this its that no one wants to do this for the pay that is being offered.

    The obviously the pay is not high enough.If I lived next door to you would you mow my lawn for a dollar? **** no you wouldn't mow my lawn for a dollar
    You just don't like my answer. The pay is there - you have to work for it. Your earnings are based on what you pick. It's tough, most Americans do not want to do it and the others do it once and decide they hate it.

    Day laborers are mostly illegals and do not fill out applications.I didn't say a day labor site.
    You didn't have too. That's the only choice if you're worried about illegals. Shall I conduct interviews and vetting in the parking lot the morning I pick them up? Do you have a clue what time you start work on a farm? We have lots of day laborer sites everywhere. They fill out tax forms and they sit down to be picked up (usually by a contractor). Most of these guys are semi-skilled construction workers. The other laborer's hang out in parking lots at your local large home supply store (name deliberately not mentioned) to be picked up by whoever needs some type of unskilled work done. No tax forms, no green card check, etc. - therefore we can't use them without alot of vetting. Most of these guys don't have ID of any kind. You might get one day of half-hearted work out of them and they're not there the next day. They are not worth it in any sense.

    You still didn't answer my question. Who is going to find these workers, help them fill out applications, & vet them? Meanwhile, the crops rot. You have a limited time to pick. Period.

    Again supply and demand dictate that you up the pay.
    And again I will tell you the pay is there if they want it. Since American citizens seem to want something for nothing, I'll tell you what the farmer is going to do. They will cease production of those crops that require seasonal labor and move on to something else. Little by little this produce will then have to be imported. Some of them will sell out to the very corporations that you mentioned in your first post, and the price of food will continue to rise until it's unbearable.

    Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper
    More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.
    article cut by me for space[SIZE=1] See my first post, I've already addressed this from a farmer's standpoint.

    We don't use illegals, but we do use legal migrant workers and we will continue to do so. Frankly, they're just better workers and they want to work. I'm just telling you the reality of getting average Americans to do these jobs. I'm all for legal immigration. The costs (and I'm talking human as well as financial) of using illegals is too great. Abuses can and do occur.
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

  7. #37
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,078

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    Wages are as high as we can get them. Let me repeat this, there are no native workers. This is hard, hard work. Americans don't like it - it's tough work. Farmers are not going to bankrupt over low-skilled, seasonal labor.



    Yes, permanent (and temporary jobs) that involve office work, clerking, etc. This is not that. This is low skilled, seasonal, temporary work. I don't see your problem in understanding this.

    Have you ever worked anywhere other than McDonalds? Your silly question get a silly question in return.



    You just don't like my answer. The pay is there - you have to work for it. Your earnings are based on what you pick. It's tough, most Americans do not want to do it and the others do it once and decide they hate it.



    You didn't have too. That's the only choice if you're worried about illegals. Shall I conduct interviews and vetting in the parking lot the morning I pick them up? Do you have a clue what time you start work on a farm? We have lots of day laborer sites everywhere. They fill out tax forms and they sit down to be picked up (usually by a contractor). Most of these guys are semi-skilled construction workers. The other laborer's hang out in parking lots at your local large home supply store (name deliberately not mentioned) to be picked up by whoever needs some type of unskilled work done. No tax forms, no green card check, etc. - therefore we can't use them without alot of vetting. Most of these guys don't have ID of any kind. You might get one day of half-hearted work out of them and they're not there the next day. They are not worth it in any sense.

    You still didn't answer my question. Who is going to find these workers, help them fill out applications, & vet them? Meanwhile, the crops rot. You have a limited time to pick. Period.



    And again I will tell you the pay is there if they want it. Since American citizens seem to want something for nothing, I'll tell you what the farmer is going to do. They will cease production of those crops that require seasonal labor and move on to something else. Little by little this produce will then have to be imported. Some of them will sell out to the very corporations that you mentioned in your first post, and the price of food will continue to rise until it's unbearable.



    article cut by me for space[SIZE=1] See my first post, I've already addressed this from a farmer's standpoint.

    We don't use illegals, but we do use legal migrant workers and we will continue to do so. Frankly, they're just better workers and they want to work. I'm just telling you the reality of getting average Americans to do these jobs. I'm all for legal immigration. The costs (and I'm talking human as well as financial) of using illegals is too great. Abuses can and do occur.
    You are under the impression that you can set any ol wage and people will flock to you looking for work. You can not set any ol wage and expect people to work for you. The wage has to be worth their while. If you are short on legal labor it because you are not paying them enough and when I mean enough I mean what it takes to get those people to work for you instead of their job in the city. You have to entice people to not go work for jobs in the city but instead go work for you in the hot sun on a farm for 12 hours a day or more, you have to entice that highschooler to not work at a fast food place or grocery store during the summer.

    This tomatoes will cost 5 dollars a pound, there will be no roofers and houses will sky rocket if people will have to hire legal labor is a load of horse crap because as mentioned at least a couple of times in this thread legal and illegal labor has little to do with the cost of goods.


    And again I will tell you the pay is there if they want it. Since American citizens seem to want something for nothing,
    I wouldn't call back breaking labor for 12 or more hours a day in the hot sun and driving to the country for 20-45 minutes just to get to work nothing. The fact that you would belittle the people who do these break breaking jobs shows what little regard you have for people who do these jobs.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #38
    Student Chenoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, Alabama
    Last Seen
    10-04-11 @ 05:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    273

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You are under the impression that you can set any ol wage and people will flock to you looking for work. You can not set any ol wage and expect people to work for you. The wage has to be worth their while. If you are short on legal labor it because you are not paying them enough and when I mean enough I mean what it takes to get those people to work for you instead of their job in the city. You have to entice people to not go work for jobs in the city but instead go work for you in the hot sun on a farm for 12 hours a day or more, you have to entice that highschooler to not work at a fast food place or grocery store during the summer.

    This tomatoes will cost 5 dollars a pound, there will be no roofers and houses will sky rocket if people will have to hire legal labor is a load of horse crap because as mentioned at least a couple of times in this thread legal and illegal labor has little to do with the cost of goods.




    I wouldn't call back breaking labor for 12 or more hours a day in the hot sun and driving to the country for 20-45 minutes just to get to work nothing. The fact that you would belittle the people who do these break breaking jobs shows what little regard you have for people who do these jobs.
    I don't use illegal labor. You're the one arguing that. I was setting you straight on your first post for blaming the farmer for the high cost of food.

    We don't set just any wage. It's a percentage of what we will get per bushel. Again, what the market will bear. Business 101. I don't expect people to flock to us, just the ones that need and want a job and are willing to actually do the work. I'm fine with using legal migrant workers until we've completed changing over to timber and cattle only. Which is what we're doing. We won't need seasonal workers anymore. We have good, skilled hands and know where to get more of them. So this is going to be a non-issue for my family, and I couldn't be happier.

    I bolded a part of your reply. Where did I call the work nothing? I didn't. I have a high regard for the people who are willing and able to do these jobs. I have a low regard for the people who scream they want a job, but refuse it or whine continuously when it's difficult.

    You have no answers or suggestions to any question I've put to you. I think you just want to argue and "Rage".
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

  9. #39
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,078

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    I don't use illegal labor. You're the one arguing that. I was setting you straight on your first post for blaming the farmer for the high cost of food.

    We don't set just any wage. It's a percentage of what we will get per bushel. Again, what the market will bear. Business 101. I don't expect people to flock to us, just the ones that need and want a job and are willing to actually do the work. I'm fine with using legal migrant workers until we've completed changing over to timber and cattle only. Which is what we're doing. We won't need seasonal workers anymore. We have good, skilled hands and know where to get more of them. So this is going to be a non-issue for my family, and I couldn't be happier.
    Legal and illegal labor has little to do with the cost of goods. If you really need farm workers you will up the pay and other incentives until you get a steady supply of labor. I can offer people a dollar to mow my lawn but that doesn't mean they'll do it even though I can get away with paying my nephew to mow my lawn, however if I upped the price to 10-20 dollars depending on the size and difficulty of the yard and perhaps even supplied the mower and gas I am pretty sure I can almost anyone to mow my lawn.

    I bolded a part of your reply. Where did I call the work nothing?
    Your response to offering higher wages and benifits for farm work was "And again I will tell you the pay is there if they want it. Since American citizens seem to want something for nothing,". this implied that you think very little of of the people who do these jobs.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #40
    Student Chenoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, Alabama
    Last Seen
    10-04-11 @ 05:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    273

    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Legal and illegal labor has little to do with the cost of goods. If you really need farm workers you will up the pay and other incentives until you get a steady supply of labor. I can offer people a dollar to mow my lawn but that doesn't mean they'll do it even though I can get away with paying my nephew to mow my lawn, however if I upped the price to 10-20 dollars depending on the size and difficulty of the yard and perhaps even supplied the mower and gas I am pretty sure I can almost anyone to mow my lawn.
    I'm sure you could on mowing a lawn. What does that take - a couple of hours? Once a week? And, it's a kid. I believe I've stated that doesn't really work except for a few part-timers periodically. Apples and Oranges.

    The bottom line is if we were to double wages and add in a few more bennies - we'd be so deep in the red we'll never dig out. The legal migrant is willing to work for what is offered and they work hard and so fast the majority of them make well over minimum wage. We had a guy last year hand-planting seedlings for $.07 a tree. He planted 2,200 trees that day. That totals out to $154.00 for non-skilled labor ($15.40/hr based on a 10 hour day, which is what is usually worked). That's way above minimum wage. He also got 2 meals per day and room and board until the job was done. So I really don't understand why you think it would be financially feasible to double the pay and add more bennies.

    However, farmers are foreseeing a trend - it looks like that in the future there will be so many expensive hoops to jump through on hiring migrant workers, that in the end it will not be worth it. So, we're doing what is economically smart and dropping potential jobs by changing our product. Many farmers and ranchers (that I personnally know of) are doing the same thing. You just cannot price yourself out of the job market. I wish we were getting so much per bushel that we could pay a small fortune, but that's not the case.

    Your response to offering higher wages and benifits for farm work was "And again I will tell you the pay is there if they want it. Since American citizens seem to want something for nothing,". this implied that you think very little of of the people who do these jobs.
    Did you miss the first sentance? I've underlined it in your post. In no way did I mean to imply that.
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •