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Thread: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Do you think this is a recent phenomenon? There have been immigrants working in the fields for decades. Before that there were slaves. The days of the family farm, where the kids and other family would all chip in come harvest time are over.
    The Amish plow their own fields with horses, and your telling me the rest of America is now to good to pick oranges. Your probably right about it being over, because Americans would rather be on the dole than pick an orange from a tree to make a living. I guess that's what entitlements are for, sit on your ass and collect money.
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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    They hire illegal immigrants because they can pay them under the table less than minimum wage and they dont complain...and still CHARGE US ridiculous prices for fruit and vegetables....its a win...win...win...win for them...and we get to pay for their child births, their trips to the emergency room...we get to pay for law enforcement costs and the horrific cost of their incarceration and all the costs related to endless deportation procedures...and we get to pay for our own kids tuition and theirs when you have MORON POLITICIANS like Perry.....
    You make a good case to completely close our border.
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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, giving the unemployment rate for a state does nothing to show how that affects how easy it may or may not be for a person to take those agriculture jobs. If a person's issue with moving is they are in a lease for so much time, then they are really unlikely to take a job, especially a min. wage, no benefits, hard labor job that requires them to drive 50-100 miles out of their way because they live in the city. You have no idea how "nearby" the candidates for those jobs are.

    Also, how many of those candidates can actually live off of those wages being offered? That is an issue. A big one, now that we have a healthcare bill coming into effect soon that requires people to have health insurance. Most people can't afford to support a family off of min. wage alone. Even those above min. wage, usually do not have health insurance.

    And, how many people know about those jobs, especially those who could pretty easily take advantage of them? That article has been out since 2010, yet this is the first time I have seen it. How in the hell is someone who is unemployed, likely not to have regular internet access, and/or might not even have a home going to know about this stuff?

    The solution is going to take a lot of things. Instilling into young people that they need to be willing to work to earn their way. Making farm owners realize that they have to be willing to offer more than just min. wage for these jobs. It doesn't necessarily have to be common benefits and/or higher wages, although that is likely the easiest. Maybe offering so much food to the families of workers or providing for their housing and/or transportation. Workers, especially those who are on assistance, need to be willing to take what jobs they can find. But there also should be changes in lease agreements and housing costs.
    I would say that most fruit pickers are paid piece work. Meaning the more you pick the more you make, I would also say good pickers make way better than minimum wage.
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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    I'll just let you guys see this Link to article

    Attachment 67116199

    Chenoa its no secret that Corporate farms let fruit and vegetables rot in fields because the price is too low for thier liking...what makes you think they wont let fruit and vegetables rot in a field because they want to pressure others not to pass a law they dont like.
    Your paying sometimes 4.00 a lb now with illegals picking vegetables...how much higher do you think they can charge before they have alot more rotting in the field because people dont buy them...I love brussel sprouts when they get stupid priced I pass them buy...along with all other fruits and vegetables that they stuck horrifically inflated prices on....they are robbing us all around....Ill await the corporate cheerleaders to tell me somehow its the unions fault..

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Chenoa its no secret that Corporate farms let fruit and vegetables rot in fields because the price is too low for thier liking...what makes you think they wont let fruit and vegetables rot in a field because they want to pressure others not to pass a law they dont like.
    Your paying sometimes 4.00 a lb now with illegals picking vegetables...how much higher do you think they can charge before they have alot more rotting in the field because people dont buy them...I love brussel sprouts when they get stupid priced I pass them buy...along with all other fruits and vegetables that they stuck horrifically inflated prices on....they are robbing us all around....Ill await the corporate cheerleaders to tell me somehow its the unions fault..
    Really. Where are you getting your infomation? It's not the corporate farms, it's the middlemen agribusiness corporations who farm nothing, but buy and sell goods. Farmers have no choice but to sell to them.

    In fact, according to agriculture expert Raj Patel, although the average basket of food has increased by 2.0 percent in real terms over the past 20 years, farmers are receiving 40 percent less. And the National Farmers Union estimates that for every dollar that U.S. consumers spend on food, only 20 cents actually goes to farmers or ranchers. The rest is found in "marketing, processing, wholesaling, distribution and retailing".

    This increasing concentration means a fewer number of agribusinesses are exerting a larger amount of influence over the food supply chain, from inputs to sale. Critics of this situation compare it to the shape of an hourglass. A vast amount of producers must funnel their goods through a handful of large corporations before they can make their way to consumers.

    Research by Mary Hendrickson, a rural sociologist at the University of Missouri, shows the level of influence by agribusiness in the United States has increased significantly. In soybean crushing, for example, the largest four firms now make up 80 percent of the market, whereas in 1977 they comprised 54 percent. In flour milling, the top four have increased their concentration from 42 percent of the market in 1982 to over 60 percent today.

    Farming is also concentrated at the extreme beginning and endpoints of U.S. agriculture. The top two seed providers comprise 58 percent of the marketplace and nearly half of purchased food comes from just five retailers: Wal-Mart, Kroger, Albertson's, Safeway, and Ahold. Link
    We have a large farm in Georgia and a larger ranch in Texas. We (and our farming neighbors) don't let anything rot in the fields. We can rarely find enough workers to pick by hand when it is needed. Quite a bit of what we grow is machine harvested, but you still have to have "hands", and believe me they're hard to find and keep. I'm going to address your "horrifically inflated prices" that you're blaming on corporate farms. (Did I mention our farm/ranch is a corporation? Probably because it's irrelevant, incorporating helps us handle the business more efficiently.

    Farming is a complex business and expensive. You can only do so much direct marketing when you have large yields (direct marketing = farmers markets, roadside markets, etc.) - you just can't sell the volume needed and it once again takes "hands" to pick, transport, and do the selling to customers. So, what does that leave? Well you can do some wholesale marketing (selling directly to retailers, cutting out the middleman) - so add in transportation costs, grading standards, and, some special handling requirements. Often special packaging is necessary. To please retailers, the product must look uniformly good - also difficult. This adds up to $'s that must be passed on to the consumer; and you once again run into volume issues. So, onto option #3. Non-direct marketing. You sell through a middleman, who then markets your crop. And you wait and sell until you get the absolute highest price for your product that you can. Sometimes, you take a massive loss.

    So, please get your facts straight before blaming farmers and ranchers. And, I'll add this... for those farmers who let crops rot because of pricing. Their business and their crops to do with as they please if they're getting screwed. Often they cannot afford to harvest for the price they're going to get (the smaller the farm, the more likely that is).
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    I'll just let you guys see this Link to article

    Attachment 67116199
    Seems to be the fault of the farmers for not offering adequate wages. If the wages they offer now are not drawing in people they need then they need to up the wage.Supply and demand is a two way street. The fact they have been getting away with using illegal labor for so long and reaping the benefits of that illegal labor and are now suffering as a result of trying to pay people with illegal alien wages is of no concern for me. If higher wages do not work then they might try offering on the job training to inexperience instead of trying only to get experienced labor. Reimbursing people for traveling might also work too. They could also have a designate employee parking lot in the city and have a bus take them to the farm to pick produce all day and have the bus drive them back to the lot at the end of the day.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Dude, get real. If they increase pay substantially they will be priced out of the market. Instead of carrying strawberries grown in Alabama stores will sell strawberries grown in Mexico. The profits go to Mexican farmers instead of Alabama farmers, and the tax revenue goes away.

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Seems to be the fault of the farmers for not offering adequate wages. If the wages they offer now are not drawing in people they need then they need to up the wage.Supply and demand is a two way street. The fact they have been getting away with using illegal labor for so long and reaping the benefits of that illegal labor and are now suffering as a result of trying to pay people with illegal alien wages is of no concern for me. If higher wages do not work then they might try offering on the job training to inexperience instead of trying only to get experienced labor. Reimbursing people for traveling might also work too. They could also have a designate employee parking lot in the city and have a bus take them to the farm to pick produce all day and have the bus drive them back to the lot at the end of the day.
    LOL on your entire post, but I'm going to address it because I seriously doubt that you've ever been on a farm.

    Illegal labor - we use labor with limited cards (they're here for harvest only) and the 3 non-migrant workers (between both states) who happen to do this for a living. Hate to tell you, but it's never been worth the risk. Large farms and ranches are checked. Constantly. The workers come in for picking season and move from farm to farm. They supposedly go back home for a couple of months per year. I have no idea whether or not that's true since I don't follow them around.

    Adequate wages - they are paid quite a bit more than minimum wage if they want it. Their pay is based on the quantity and speed (and they pick alot, quickly). Most of them live on the farm during the season and we provide housing and meals.

    On the job training - heck, I guess bend over, grab that, pull, put in bag, repeat. That would do for on the job training.

    Busing to and from the farm from the city - seriously!?! You want the foreman to drive over 60 miles one way to pick up non-existant labor? The thing you are failing to grasp is that no one wants to do these jobs. The second thing is what we'd end up getting. Usually we'd get a drug addicts or a drunks that have run out of options, or just need enough money for their next high. If they don't die of heat stroke within the first three hours, they'll disappear shortly after that - most likely in one of our trucks. We've been there and done that.

    These jobs are unskilled labor and it's back-breaking work. You don't need a college degree to pick. Another reality is all the extra expense that your ideas would add will indeed be passed on to you - the consumer. That's business.
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Dude, get real. If they increase pay substantially they will be priced out of the market. Instead of carrying strawberries grown in Alabama stores will sell strawberries grown in Mexico. The profits go to Mexican farmers instead of Alabama farmers, and the tax revenue goes away.
    Allow illegal immigration and the profits go to dishonest scumbags who hire illegals, which keeps wages artificially low and screws honest businesses. Crack down on illegals thus making business owners pay a adequate wage and we will be buying produce from Mexico which goes to farmers over there and possibly the Mexicans who did not cross over here illegally, which sounds like utter BS and fear mongering.

    Perhaps your pro-illegal fear mongering would work better if you tried to sound like one of those con artist televangelist.

    The price of tomatoes will rise to 5 dollar a pound. You will have to baby sits your owns Childrens. And without any illegals around you will have to mow your lawn instead of just relaxing on a Saturday morning. And without any illegals around the price of homes will sky rocket and there will massive epidemic of homelessness. All this can be avoided if we allow the illegal aliens to stay here, can I get a Amen......amen!.....Thank you brother.

    Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper
    More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

    You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.

    The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

    The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.

    Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

    At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

    And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 hours for an acre of wheat.

    The labor-intensive nature of many crops is a key reason agriculture continues to rely on illegal workers. A report by Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center who has long studied immigration trends, estimates that 247,000 illegal immigrants were employed as "miscellaneous agricultural workers" last year — only 3.4 percent of the nation's 7.2 million illegal workers, according to Pew statistics, but 29 percent of all workers in that job category.

    Eliminating illegal farmworkers, by shrinking the pool of available labor, likely would raise wages for those who remain. Philip Martin, a professor of agricultural economics at the University of California, Davis, noted that two years after the old bracero program ended in 1964, the United Farm Workers union won a 40 percent increase for grape harvesters.

    A decade ago, two Iowa State University agricultural economists estimated that removing all illegal farmworkers would raise wages for seasonal farmworkers by 30 percent in the first couple of years, and 15 percent in the medium term.

    But supermarket prices of summer-fall fruits and vegetables, they concluded, would rise by just 6 percent in the short run — dropping to 3 percent over time, as imports took up some of the slack and some farmers mechanized their operations or shifted out of labor-intensive crops. (Winter-spring produce would be even less affected, they found, because so much already is imported.)

    If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Judge lets key parts of Alabama immigration law stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenoa View Post
    LOL on your entire post, but I'm going to address it because I seriously doubt that you've ever been on a farm.

    Illegal labor - we use labor with limited cards

    They have H2A VISAs(which are petitioned by the employer not the employee)?



    (they're here for harvest only) and the 3 non-migrant workers (between both states) who happen to do this for a living. Hate to tell you, but it's never been worth the risk. Large farms and ranches are checked. Constantly. The workers come in for picking season and move from farm to farm. They supposedly go back home for a couple of months per year. I have no idea whether or not that's true since I don't follow them around.

    The way the pro-illegals crowd makes it sounds its as though every farm in the country employs illegal aliens.


    Adequate wages - they are paid quite a bit more than minimum wage if they want it. Their pay is based on the quantity and speed (and they pick alot, quickly). Most of them live on the farm during the season and we provide housing and meals.
    If you re having a hard time finding labor then the wages and or benefits are not adequate.



    Busing to and from the farm from the city - seriously!?!
    If a farm is in desperate need of labor then they will use what ever legally available means to do it.

    You want the foreman to drive over 60 miles one way to pick up non-existant labor?
    I realize that dishonest people drive up somewhere and pick up people from day labor sites to work, however I did not suggest any such thing. Nor did I suggest that someone drive up to a parking hoping to pick up random people wanting to work. The foreman would drive up to a parking lot where there are people who have filled out applications and passed employment interviews and are told where to be and at what time.

    The thing you are failing to grasp is that no one wants to do these jobs.
    If you have a hard time finding people to work for you then the wages and or benefits are not adequate enough.

    These jobs are unskilled labor and it's back-breaking work. You don't need a college degree to pick.
    That is not relevant. If the supply of legal labor is low then you must increase the wages and possibly add some benefits to attract legal labor.

    Another reality is all the extra expense that your ideas would add will indeed be passed on to you - the consumer. That's business.
    Duh.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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