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Thread: Drug testing surprise

  1. #31
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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Remember that they are violating your privacy in order to determine you are breaking the law. No suspicion is required. You are presumed guilty and required to prove your innocence.

    I consider employment to be an exchange of value for value. Not an indenture.
    I think in the case of drug testing welfare recipients, they are not drug testing for criminal purposes. It is more likely that they would just require somebody enter a rehabilitation program before they are eligible for benefits instead of criminalizing them and only making things harder on the public and not really solving any problems. If this were a screening to find out who is breaking the law and who is not, I agree, it would be extremely unconstitutional.

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    Why? In what way would spending all that money on unnecessary tests benefit you?
    Its not to benefit me or her...hopefully it benefits the user by giving them an incentive to stop using so they could be productive on their own

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    Why? In what way would spending all that money on unnecessary tests benefit you?
    Maybe you don't pay taxes, but I do. I am very concerned with where my tax money is going because I work hard for it. I know for a fact that there are many many many people on welfare that are not utilizing the benefits to better their lives. Just as I would not hand a bum on the street $20 to go buy a dime sack and a six pack, I would not want my taxes going towards those kinds of habits either.

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Let's be honest: the point of doing it is to humiliate people who are already down on their luck and to score political points with right wingers. Why else would you drug test welfare recipients but not other recipients of state funds, like contractors who operate heavy machinery? Or legislators? Or the governor and his staff?

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    What gets me, and is often overlooked by pundants is this. If the point of testing is to punish users by removing their benefits, how is that any different than simply taking benefits away from capable people? If the goal is to remove those that are unworthy, then do so, and we don't need drug testing to do this. Just manpower. That said, and here's the rub.. What about the children? What aboutt he kiddies of all these abusers, and fraudulent recipients of welfare dough? Regardless of why thy are removed, don't the children still suffer? This is the argument from progressives, and even some moderate republicans for decades, and to some extent the argument has merit. Whehn we remove benefits of welfare recipients, what we're really doing is taking away (in some quantifiable measure) from the children of these people.

    My question is. If we all agree that we as tax payers shouldn't be paying benefits to capable, and able-bodied people, and only to those that are deserving, how do we resolve the moral obligation to protect the children?

    By the way.. I'm a conservative, but I've never really heard a good argument for how we stop the waste, abuse and fraud, and yet still find a way to protect those that are simply victims of this circumstance? The same can be said about the illegal immigration issue, and that MOST illegal immigrants in this country are actually hard working, and notwithstanding the illegal act of coming to America, are themselves honest people willing to do what it takes for their families.. How do we fix this conundrum?


    Tim-
    Everybody always says, "think of the children". With all of the able people collecting tax money to live, do you think these children are already not being "victimized"? I think forcing a little accountibility onto these families as a whole will motivate the parents to be better at being parents while also teaching the children a valuable lesson about working hard for what you have. There will always be "victims" in every reform, but if the end result is that everything improves for everyone on both sides in the long run, then people need to learn to just suck it up and do what is right whether you want to or not.

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Let's be honest: the point of doing it is to humiliate people who are already down on their luck and to score political points with right wingers. Why else would you drug test welfare recipients but not other recipients of state funds, like contractors who operate heavy machinery? Or legislators? Or the governor and his staff?
    If you really think that, then you have some issues. It is amazing that there are so many people out there with such an ignorant short sighted view of how things work.

    Have you stopped to think that all of the people you used as examples actually work a job to earn their money except for the welfare recipients?

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    If you really think that, then you have some issues. It is amazing that there are so many people out there with such an ignorant short sighted view of how things work.

    Have you stopped to think that all of the people you used as examples actually work a job to earn their money except for the welfare recipients?
    So the key distinction for drug testing is employment? Why would that be the case? Personally, as a tax payer in Florida, I'd rather see the guy operating the road grader piss in a cup than the guy who got laid off from the construction firm.

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    Everybody always says, "think of the children". With all of the able people collecting tax money to live, do you think these children are already not being "victimized"? I think forcing a little accountibility onto these families as a whole will motivate the parents to be better at being parents while also teaching the children a valuable lesson about working hard for what you have. There will always be "victims" in every reform, but if the end result is that everything improves for everyone on both sides in the long run, then people need to learn to just suck it up and do what is right whether you want to or not.
    I don't disagree. As I said, I'm a conservative through and through, however, this is the argument. So the answer is to break a few eggs to make an omlet.. Ok, I can dig that, but the fact still remains that there will indeed be quite a few eggs being broken, and the kiddies will be the eggs that will be broken. How does the state deal with that? Do we take them away from poor parents that are unwilling to work, or drug users that smoke weed, and sometimes go without milk, or food for their families.. You make it sound like only a few will be hurt, but I suspect that this endemic problem of the last 40 years of entitlement spending has far more reprecussions than either you or I can imagine.

    That said, if we can deal with the pain, and there will be a ton of it getting off this entitlement mentality, then yes, in the long run our nation and its people will be far better off. But politics isn't played in the long term. We play that game here in the US every two years.. You can't fix this problem politically in two years..

    So, purely from a political sci standpoint, what is the solution. How do you sell this to the American people, and have them stay focused long enough to make it work?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So the key distinction for drug testing is employment? Why would that be the case? Personally, as a tax payer in Florida, I'd rather see the guy operating the road grader piss in a cup than the guy who got laid off from the construction firm.
    Where did I say the key distinction for drug testing is emplyment? I pointed out that you are comparing apples to oranges. A person who is earning their own money should be of no concern to you as a taxpayer. The people who run the companies that own the road grader and employ the guy operating it likely do make him piss in a cup. And it costs you nothing as a taxpayer (beyond what is already budgeted for public employees) so your argument is completely irrelevant. A person on Welfare is simply collecting public money. The guy who got laid off from the construction firm is likely actively looking for another job. None of this is designed to target these kinds of people, so again, your argument is irrelevant. It is designed to target people who simply do not work and abuse the system. If you think the only people on welfare are hard working people who are victims of circumstance, then you are not educated enough on this topic to be having this discussion.

  10. #40
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    Re: Drug testing surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by coolwalker View Post
    No, I would not be that big of a jerk. Live and let live.
    If I'm on the highway and I see a guy on a bike weaving in and out of traffic, driving between lanes, speeding, popping wheelies, etc. I am damn sure calling the cops. He is posing a risk to himself and other drivers and that threat should be taken seriously. It isn't about being a jerk, it's about recognizing a legitmate risk to the health and safety of others. Your rights end at the point where they threaten the rights, health, or safety of another, IMO.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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