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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

  1. #531
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    i can't think of one, can you?
    From a quick google search:

    Smart Recovery
    Rational Recovery
    Secular Organizations for Sobriety
    Women for Sobriety
    Beyond Belief
    We Agnostics

    But now I have led us off point. There are certainly loads of secular community service organizations.
    Last edited by Cameron; 09-29-11 at 06:24 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    that's cute, by sentencing a convict to serve time by going to Church once a week or going to jail for a year, violating the 1st Amendment.

    its funny how Conservatives love to wave the Constitution in Liberals' faces....up until the point when the Constitution runs counter to their own agenda & beliefs.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I play for my team, you play for yours.
    who is your "team"?

    is this a game?

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Dodge much?
    Only when I can't think of a good straw-man.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Who's saying it has anything to do with the church or the church should hold any responsibility for it? Nothing changes for the churches if this program is not allowed to be enacted. There is no penalty being laid on any of the churches if the program is changed to include secular options or if it is dropped altogether. And if any church is gaining any sort of financial advantage from the state from the enactment of this program and would lose that if it got put down, well then that is just one more point against the program to show that it is unconstitutional.
    So you're saying there are all these different religious groups out there who are also qualified to conduct this service, and the state is ONLY allowing Christin organizations?

    Or are you saying that only Christians are stepping up to help while everyone slacks off?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No one in fact faces any actual penalty from not enacting this program. Unless they cannot come up with an alternative program that is acceptable, the city will still be responsible for the funding to house the criminals that may have had this option, but they can always come up with a secular program of alternative sentencing, such as mandatory community service, that would take care of that.
    Or some secular folks need to get a 501c3 going and dip into that government money for themselves. No one likes paying taxes, go get some of it back. Hell if you have a business I'm sure a 501c3 would come in handy for shelter-er, I mean, charitable tax-deductible contributions.

    The left never had a problem doing this when it came to lying about the Apocali-um, wait, that's global warming.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So you're saying there are all these different religious groups out there who are also qualified to conduct this service, and the state is ONLY allowing Christin organizations?

    Or are you saying that only Christians are stepping up to help while everyone slacks off?

    Or some secular folks need to get a 501c3 going and dip into that government money for themselves. No one likes paying taxes, go get some of it back. Hell if you have a business I'm sure a 501c3 would come in handy for shelter-er, I mean, charitable tax-deductible contributions.

    The left never had a problem doing this when it came to lying about the Apocali-um, wait, that's global warming.
    What service? Preaching about the Bible or teaching people about a specific religion's beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are, is not a community service. That is what we are talking about here. It isn't like those offered this choice are required to actually get any help or go to any other specific church meetings or take any self-improvement classes that are only being offered by the churches. They are only required to attend church services, as in Sunday preaching hour(s), to hear about that church's particular views on how a higher power expects a person to behave and what may happen in the afterlife should you not follow those expectations.

    No one has a problem with a church being able to be involved in certain punishments when the religion of the church has little to do with what the point of the involvement is. The point of having someone do community service is to have the person make up for something they did by helping others. Even if the community service is being performed at a soup kitchen run by a church, the point of the soup kitchen is not to preach about the beliefs of that church but to help people which is in line with the secular point of the punishment.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    \

    that is a totally separate arguement. abortion = killing whether you want to consider a fetus a human or not is irrelevent. which is why I brought up the animal shelter example.
    Yeah... but the word infanticide has a specific meaning, and it doesn't apply to fetuses.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Yeah... but the word infanticide has a specific meaning, and it doesn't apply to fetuses.
    yes, that's why calling abortion "infanticide", is sooo stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    which is totally irrelevent since the church, in no way, shape or form, materially benefits from having that criminal sitting in their services.
    Ok. First, the tax treatment is irrelevant- I posited it as an example of other special treatment of religious organizations.

    Second, the issue of the church benefiting from the attendees is irrelevant to the point of "serving time" still being a special provision under law not afforded secular entities.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    How would all the Conservatives in this thread feel if the convict was Muslim and the judge gave him the option of 1 year in jail or 1 year of being free but going to Mosque and learning about the Qur'an every Friday eve for a year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They don't pay taxes for other, unrelated reasons...mainly being that it keeps religion out of the government.

    If Joe Shmuck did something stupid and was sentenced to, say, 40 hours of community service, how are you directly affected if he serves through a church program as opposed to another program? He shows up in the same clothes, and does the same kind of work. The only difference is that the person who validates his time may have a religious title in their name.

    Links demonstrating how you are materially harmed are appreciated, but not required.
    I don't accept personal material harm as a reasonable bar. As a matter of fact, it's rather ridiculous. I wouldn't be harmed at all by a law allowing the enslavement of Canadians, but it would still be immoral, unfair, and unconstitutional.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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