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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, I've curtailed it to be equivalent to the church option. You seemingly avoid that. They can attend church and then answer questions about the service for a year. Then we could do, the attend PP and answer questions about the service for a year. Thus they are equivalent. Now then, how many people supporting the Jail or Church option would take the Jail or PP option?
    really? I have answered that at least 3 times. IF that were to be the case, all you had to do was go and sit at PP and answer questions about what happened, I doubt you'd find many, even hard core religious people, who would rather go to jail than sit at PP.


    but that was not your original arguement. you started off talking about mopping floors, etc at PP. you only "moved the goalpost" when I challenged you to tell me what equivalent benefit the church was getting from having the person sitting there.

    FWIW, I would still like an answer to that question or an admission that the answer is, in fact, "the church gets no benefit"
    Last edited by OscarB63; 09-29-11 at 05:14 PM.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Even if it's not your religion, it's avoiding punishment and staying out of jail. .
    so, from the criminal's perspective, where is the problem?

    it's funny that most of the people who are squealing about how unconstitutional this is and how it really isn't a choice are the people least likely to ever find themselves in that position. a criminal isn't really going to give two ****s if it's against his religion or not, he's just going to see a big fat "get out of jail free" card.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 09-29-11 at 05:16 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So going back to your abortion clinic analogy, this is like sitting in on a couple hours of abortions and then answering questions afterwords. Obviously those unopposed to abortion aren't going to have a problem with this, just like theists aren't generally going to have a problem with someone sitting through a service.

    This is like complaining when someone is ordered to attend AA because of AA's references to "a higher power".

    This serves a valid secular purpose, and if the convict still doesn't like it, they can choose jail.

    I wonder why atheists aren't coming out of the woodwork to offer equivalent Richard Dawkins classes. Obviously there's a demand here. Fill that demand, instead of just sitting on your ass complaining about everyone else. No one is stopping you from getting your piece of the pie.
    First of all, I haven't made any such analogy. I haven't mentioned abortion clinics at all.

    Second, it is the town's responsibility to ensure punishments are not unconstitutional. When someone points out that the options are not Constitutional, it is then their responsibility to change that, not everyone else's. The town government is the one that has to ensure that either equivalent alternatives are available or they do not implement this program as it currently stands.

    Plus, AA meetings, without a secular alternative that has no mention of a higher power, have been found to be unconstitutional in several cases, that I am pretty sure I already posted earlier in this thread.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, I haven't made any such analogy. I haven't mentioned abortion clinics at all.

    Second, it is the town's responsibility to ensure punishments are not unconstitutional. When someone points out that the options are not Constitutional, it is then their responsibility to change that, not everyone else's. The town government is the one that has to ensure that either equivalent alternatives are available or they do not implement this program as it currently stands.

    Plus, AA meetings, without a secular alternative that has no mention of a higher power, have been found to be unconstitutional in several cases, that I am pretty sure I already posted earlier in this thread.
    Abortion clinics were in this line of community discussion, please try to keep up; non of us live in that city, so therefore by the Left's own standard this is non of our business; the AA is still hear, and I take great joy in the fact that that pisses you off.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Go to church have the charges dismissed.

    Go to jail have a record.

    This secular "choice" does not even have a trace of equivalency
    Ok, so the choice for you is obvious. Does that mean it is obvious to everyone? Does that mean your choice is preferable to everyone? So many people seem to think that easy choices are not choices and that simply isn't true.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    so, from the criminal's perspective, where is the problem?

    it's funny that most of the people who are squealing about how unconstitutional this is and how it really isn't a choice are the people least likely to ever find themselves in that position. a criminal isn't really going to give two ****s if it's against his religion or not, he's just going to see a big fat "get out of jail free" card.
    I don't think that's the point. I have no doubt that many prisoners would jump all over such an opportunity, which is part of the danger.

    One of the biggest complaints with programs like Alcoholics Annonymous, for example, is that it effectively preys on weak-minded people and brainwashes them into accepting a religion. A similar problem might arise under this law. The government should not be drafting legislation that basically funnels people to the Church for them to convert.

    Even if there is no effort on the part of the Church to evangelize people, it is still a violation of the separation of Church and state to give a religious institution favoritism over non-religious institutions that could serve the same objectives.

    I think the overall idea is good. Let criminals be productive and help society rather than just sit and rot in prison. But the implementation is flawed.
    Last edited by Cameron; 09-29-11 at 05:34 PM.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    oh, so his religious option is to be free without probation, but sit in church every Sunday for a year...and his secular option is to sit in JAIL for a year.

    do you consider these two options to be equal?

    it is truly ignorant and/or blatantly dishonest to argue that the two options are equal.
    No one ever did. You wanted a secular option and there it is. No one said you had to like it.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Abortion clinics were in this line of community discussion, please try to keep up; non of us live in that city, so therefore by the Left's own standard this is non of our business; the AA is still hear, and I take great joy in the fact that that pisses you off.

    You are free to choose how you failed.
    This is your problem, you group everyone together who doesn't agree with you and pretend they are making the same arguments. That would be wrong. I am not making an argument involving abortion clinics at all, nor have I in this thread.

    And I have no problem with AA being available. It is a wonderful program that has helped plenty of people, including a friend of mine. Mandated AA, with no option for those who have no interest in relying on a higher power to help them with their alcoholism is the problem. Most places are remedying that with no issue. At least one such program is called SOS.

    I don't have an issue whatsoever with religious options being available as part of punishments, as long as there are equivalent secular options available as well. That is the problem with the "Operation ROC" that is being discussed. There is no equivalent secular option available that compares to the church option.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    No one ever did. You wanted a secular option and there it is. No one said you had to like it.
    Don't do the crime if you can't to the time...in church, or jail...whichever.

    We are talking about criminals here, so I'm automatically not going to be sympathetic by default. They were in the wrong in the first place, so claims of victimization over something so trivial is invalid.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is your problem...
    I've not received a community service sentence nor do I object to the available options to serve it, so I have no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't have an issue whatsoever with religious options being available as part of punishments, as long as there are equivalent secular options available as well. That is the problem with the "Operation ROC" that is being discussed. There is no equivalent secular option available that compares to the church option.
    OK, and how is that the church's fault? Why aren't secularists coming out with equivalent programs?

    If you answered "because secularists don't give a **** about the community and want everyone else to do everything for them", you would be correct.

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