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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    First- allowing criminals to "serve time" with churches but not non-religious alternatives would give them a special status under the law. Also, they don't pay taxes which is pretty special.
    which is totally irrelevent since the church, in no way, shape or form, materially benefits from having that criminal sitting in their services.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    First- allowing criminals to "serve time" with churches but not non-religious alternatives would give them a special status under the law. Also, they don't pay taxes which is pretty special.
    They don't pay taxes for other, unrelated reasons...mainly being that it keeps religion out of the government.

    If Joe Shmuck did something stupid and was sentenced to, say, 40 hours of community service, how are you directly affected if he serves through a church program as opposed to another program? He shows up in the same clothes, and does the same kind of work. The only difference is that the person who validates his time may have a religious title in their name.

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    Last edited by Jerry; 09-29-11 at 03:33 PM.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    So this thread caused me to do a little more reading on the religious initiatives used in the prison system. Nothing real conclusive...lots of people say that while prisoners are in prison, the religious services help and provide support but the long term value on recidivism is still unknown. not the point.

    There were a whole lot of groups that would have absolutely zero involvement in prisons or the care/treatment of prisoners but fell out of the woodwork to sue to stop the practice for no other reason than the fact that religion is involved. My conclusion...there are a bunch of petty pathetic ****ed up people in this country.

    Any of you that object to the practice as cited in the OP...rather than give lip service because your delicate sensibilities are offended...please feel free to volunteer your services and engage in problem solving solution rather thanwhine and bitch because someone offers an alternative you dont like.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    wrongo. the deal in Bay Minette was that they could attend church and then answer questions about the service for a year. not just go and sit there.

    so, until you can show me how doing that will materially benefit the church, your PP comparison is invalid.

    and since I have asked 4 times and you keep avoiding the question, logic dictates that you don't have an answer
    No, I've curtailed it to be equivalent to the church option. You seemingly avoid that. They can attend church and then answer questions about the service for a year. Then we could do, the attend PP and answer questions about the service for a year. Thus they are equivalent. Now then, how many people supporting the Jail or Church option would take the Jail or PP option?
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    and what is that? what secular option does he have to going to church every Sunday? can he go to the movies instead?
    Jail...didn't you read the article?
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They don't pay taxes for other, unrelated reasons...mainly being that it keeps religion out of the government.

    If Joe Shmuck did something stupid and was sentenced to, say, 40 hours of community service, how are you directly affected if he serves through a church program as opposed to another program? He shows up in the same clothes, and does the same kind of work. The only difference is that the person who validates his time may have a religious title in their name.

    Links demonstrating how you are materially harmed are appreciated, but not required.
    But that is not what this program is. If it was, most people would probably have zero problem with the program, as long as the goal was actually getting the person to actually do something as punishment for their crime. This program just forces the person to attend church and then answer questions about the service afterward. There is no requirement to actually help the church or the community. There isn't even a requirement, from what I can tell, to attend church sponsored counseling or classes of any kind. All that is being said is required is the person attend Sunday service. That is the issue because there is nothing else equivalent to that being offered for those who are not religious or who do not already belong to one of those churches involved in this.

    Equivalent to sitting in a church service would be sitting for an hour or two discussing beliefs/ideas/a book/whatever or having to listen to someone else do this. Maybe if everyone was given the option of having to attend a book report or a sports discussion or a political discussion every week for an hour or two, that would be equivalent punishment and would probably satisfy any Constitutionality issues. But overall, none of these things in themselves, including the church attendance option, are likely to be seen as a proper punishment by most people. Now, it would depend on the crime being broken, but if it is a crime that deserves attention enough to deserve any legal punishment, it should probably be a harsher punishment than these things for most people.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    no one is forcing them to go to church.
    The government in fact is. It takes force to put one in jail or make them go to church. There's not really an option, it's false choice. It's like saying I'll shoot you in the head, or shoot you in the knee and you bitch about not being able to walk right the rest of your life and I say "well you could have always taken the shot to the head, it was your choice".

    Who in their right bloody mind would take jail over sitting in church? Even if it's not your religion, it's avoiding punishment and staying out of jail. There is no rational reason to take jail over church. Both options represent force.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    Jail...didn't you read the article?
    oh, so his religious option is to be free without probation, but sit in church every Sunday for a year...and his secular option is to sit in JAIL for a year.

    do you consider these two options to be equal?

    it is truly ignorant and/or blatantly dishonest to argue that the two options are equal.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    Jail...didn't you read the article?
    Go to church have the charges dismissed.

    Go to jail have a record.

    This secular "choice" does not even have a trace of equivalency
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But that is not what this program is. If it was, most people would probably have zero problem with the program, as long as the goal was actually getting the person to actually do something as punishment for their crime. This program just forces the person to attend church and then answer questions about the service afterward. There is no requirement to actually help the church or the community. There isn't even a requirement, from what I can tell, to attend church sponsored counseling or classes of any kind. All that is being said is required is the person attend Sunday service. That is the issue because there is nothing else equivalent to that being offered for those who are not religious or who do not already belong to one of those churches involved in this.

    Equivalent to sitting in a church service would be sitting for an hour or two discussing beliefs/ideas/a book/whatever or having to listen to someone else do this. Maybe if everyone was given the option of having to attend a book report or a sports discussion or a political discussion every week for an hour or two, that would be equivalent punishment and would probably satisfy any Constitutionality issues. But overall, none of these things in themselves, including the church attendance option, are likely to be seen as a proper punishment by most people. Now, it would depend on the crime being broken, but if it is a crime that deserves attention enough to deserve any legal punishment, it should probably be a harsher punishment than these things for most people.
    So going back to your abortion clinic analogy, this is like sitting in on a couple hours of abortions and then answering questions afterwords. Obviously those unopposed to abortion aren't going to have a problem with this, just like theists aren't generally going to have a problem with someone sitting through a service.

    This is like complaining when someone is ordered to attend AA because of AA's references to "a higher power".

    This serves a valid secular purpose, and if the convict still doesn't like it, they can choose jail.

    I wonder why atheists aren't coming out of the woodwork to offer equivalent Richard Dawkins classes. Obviously there's a demand here. Fill that demand, instead of just sitting on your ass complaining about everyone else. No one is stopping you from getting your piece of the pie.

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