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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    How about we offer a choice to attend a strip club every Friday for a year (for the sake of the hypothetical they do not have to pay a cover charge to get in). Its a choice, and nobody is forcing anyone to participate. They do not even have to look, nor do they have to tip the dancers, and can just sit in the back of the room (or the lobby even) reading a bible if they want.
    now that, my friend, is a valid comparison. since they are not materially benefitting the strip club by simply being there. in fact, they are harming the club by taking up a seat that a paying customer might otherwise occupy.



    and, like the church sentence, it's a bad idea because it basically lets the criminal off scott free.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 09-29-11 at 02:52 PM.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    What if the offender is an atheist? For this reason, I believe that this is unconstitutional. Community service? OK, that is good, but not something where the government is uncontitutionally forcing religion down someone's throat. Let the offender bust bricks or something instead.

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    There's more than just atheists, man. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and a bunch more. Even different sects of Christianity, which aren't compatible with others practices. However, if the person objects due to religious reasons, I don't see any judge risking his/her career over something like this.

    Plus, I might add that this is for non-violent offenses. Like shoplifting, smoking a joint, and other minor stupid **** like that. Sending some punk kid to an overcrowded correctional facility to be surrounded by real criminals is just dumb.
    Last edited by Surtr; 09-29-11 at 03:00 PM.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    There's more than just atheists, man. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and a bunch more. Even different sects of Christianity, which aren't compatible with others practices.

    However, if the person objects due to religious reasons, I don't see any judge risking his/her career over something like this.
    if the person objects due to religious reasons...they can always go to jail like they were supposed to. no one is forcing them to go to church.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    ..and no, you are 100% wrong.
    I am, in fact, correct.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    now that, my friend, is a valid comparison. since they are not materially benefitting the strip club by simply being there. in fact, they are harming the club by taking up a seat that a paying customer might otherwise occupy.



    and, like the church sentence, it's a bad idea because it basically lets the criminal off scott free.
    I agree it basically lets [some] criminals off scott free, especially those who attend strip clubs regularly already. Continuing this hypothetical though, lets say you have the following choices.

    1) Jail + charges stick
    2) pay fine + charges stick
    3) Attend strip club and charges are dismissed.

    No church option here because we are using this to draw a parallel to the current situation. lets also assume a large portion of the community feel strongly that regular strip club attendance is potentially a deterrent to crime.

    Now there are a handful of people in this community who do not attend strip clubs, and in fact are adverse to the idea of stepping foot into one - to them this is a punishment.

    Sure they have a "choice". Go to jail or pay the fine and have the charges stick on their record, or go to the strip club and have them vanish. like it never even happened. This is the same for those who attend the strip club every friday already, and are not offended or put out in any way from this option.

    So we have group a) commits a misdemeanor their path and their "choice" to having charges dismissed equates to life as usual, zero disruption, zero change in their life and their routine, zero ramifications and zero punishment.

    group b) commits the same misdemeanor, they get the same "choice" to have theoir charges dismissed, however their choice is a disruption of life as usual, a change in their routine, and for some potentially a change that is flat out offensive. For this group there are ramifications and this is a punishment.

    Does this seem like a fair set of choices, or a fair standard? There is a supposed "choice", yet only one path for the charges to get dismissed. Some essentiually go unpunished and do not have to deviate from their normal routine at all, others would be very put out, for them it would be punishment.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    What's not to like is that it provides a special status to religious organizations.
    Allowing religious organizations to participate in managing community service along with all of the pre-existing non-religious organizations in no way gives any church any special status.

    No such special status exists.

    If anything, religious organizations have been discriminated against all this time by not being allowed to provide this service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    last I checked they don't commit infanticide at church. perhaps a better analogy would be community service at the local animal shelter killing puppies and kittens
    So... you can't abort an infant, last I checked.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    I agree it basically lets [some] criminals off scott free, especially those who attend strip clubs regularly already. Continuing this hypothetical though, lets say you have the following choices.

    1) Jail + charges stick
    2) pay fine + charges stick
    3) Attend strip club and charges are dismissed.

    No church option here because we are using this to draw a parallel to the current situation. lets also assume a large portion of the community feel strongly that regular strip club attendance is potentially a deterrent to crime.

    Now there are a handful of people in this community who do not attend strip clubs, and in fact are adverse to the idea of stepping foot into one - to them this is a punishment.

    Sure they have a "choice". Go to jail or pay the fine and have the charges stick on their record, or go to the strip club and have them vanish. like it never even happened. This is the same for those who attend the strip club every friday already, and are not offended or put out in any way from this option.

    So we have group a) commits a misdemeanor their path and their "choice" to having charges dismissed equates to life as usual, zero disruption, zero change in their life and their routine, zero ramifications and zero punishment.

    group b) commits the same misdemeanor, they get the same "choice" to have theoir charges dismissed, however their choice is a disruption of life as usual, a change in their routine, and for some potentially a change that is flat out offensive. For this group there are ramifications and this is a punishment.

    Does this seem like a fair set of choices, or a fair standard? There is a supposed "choice", yet only one path for the charges to get dismissed. Some essentiually go unpunished and do not have to deviate from their normal routine at all, others would be very put out, for them it would be punishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Allowing religious organizations to participate in managing community service along with all of the pre-existing non-religious organizations in no way gives any church any special status.

    No such special status exists.

    If anything, religious organizations have been discriminated against all this time by not being allowed to provide this service.
    First- allowing criminals to "serve time" with churches but not non-religious alternatives would give them a special status under the law. Also, they don't pay taxes which is pretty special.
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    So... you can't abort an infant, last I checked.
    \

    that is a totally separate arguement. abortion = killing whether you want to consider a fetus a human or not is irrelevent. which is why I brought up the animal shelter example.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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