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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    ....url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause]Establishment Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ur....
    thank you for that. This ruling clearly violates the 2nd part of the understanding that YOU posted.

    The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another


    requiring that a convict go to jail or go to Church on Sunday is a governmental preference for Christianity over Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc etc....hence violates the Establishment Clause.
    Last edited by Thunder; 09-28-11 at 05:00 PM.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They may, but as of right now, it is what we have and what the lower courts are basing many decisions off.

    And it still does not address the other Constitutional issue that the choice in punishment discriminates based on someone's involvement level within a/a few specific religions within the area. This is a violation of the 14th Amendment in that it offers a relatively unequal punishment option to those not involved in a religion within the area already and those who are involved with a religion already in the area.
    Is this the portion you're referring to?

    "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    thank you for that. This ruling clearly violates the 2nd part of the understanding that YOU posted.

    The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another


    requiring that a convict go to jail or go to Church on Sunday is a governmental preference for Christianity over Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc etc....hence violates the Establishment Clause.
    Don't forget Jediism, Wicca, Pastafarianism, and Odinism, plus any of millions of personal beliefs that individuals might hold that stray away from an established religion just enough or more so that they don't fit in and would likely be persecuted or berated or called out in any of those "approved" churches for expressing those beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    thank you for that. This ruling clearly violates the 2nd part of the understanding that YOU posted.

    The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another
    Where is one religion being preferenced over another? Does this only apply to Christians and not Jews, Muslims, etc? I read nothing like that, though it is a question that could be raised to the local courts.

    requiring that a convict go to jail or go to Church on Sunday is a governmental preference for Christianity over Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc etc....hence violates the Establishment Clause.
    But no one has said that.

    I suspect that's because there are few delinquent Taoists, Shintos or Hindus in the community.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Where is one religion being preferenced over another? Does this only apply to Christians and not Jews, Muslims, etc? I read nothing like that, though it is a question that could be raised to the local courts...
    Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Taoists, do not go to Church on Sunday.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Interesting.

    What of a parallel governing system like Sharia Law ever happening in America?

    Do you or do you not think that would be constituional to respect a parallel, religious form of government such as Sharia Law?
    This...

    ...is important.

    If we don't give prisoners the option of going to church... then surely America would never allow anything remotely close to a parallel, religious government like Sharia Law?

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059832892]

    Where is one religion being preferenced over another? Does this only apply to Christians and not Jews, Muslims, etc? I read nothing like that, though it is a question that could be raised to the local courts.

    But no one has said that.

    I suspect that's because there are few delinquent Taoists, Shintos or Hindus in the community.
    At least one of those articles about this case point out that there are no temples or mosques in the area, so there is no way that any Muslims or Jews who happened to get this "option" would be able to actually go to a place of worship that matched their beliefs. Plus, there is no church that matches my personal religious beliefs and that is certainly true for all atheists. This means that at least someone could be subjected to having to go to a place of worship that is against their beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Don't forget Jediism, Wicca, Pastafarianism, and Odinism, plus any of millions of personal beliefs that individuals might hold that stray away from an established religion just enough or more so that they don't fit in and would likely be persecuted or berated or called out in any of those "approved" churches for expressing those beliefs.
    Perhaps these religions, and the others mentioned, are now underrepresented in Bay Minette, Alabama, a town of less than 8,000 people.

    Maybe when more delinquent Rastafarians and Odinists move into the area the program can be expanded.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post

    At least one of those articles about this case point out that there are no temples or mosques in the area, so there is no way that any Muslims or Jews who happened to get this "option" would be able to actually go to a place of worship that matched their beliefs. Plus, there is no church that matches my personal religious beliefs and that is certainly true for all atheists. This means that at least someone could be subjected to having to go to a place of worship that is against their beliefs.
    Or they could opt out of the program. There are choices involved here.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhaps these religions, and the others mentioned, are now underrepresented in Bay Minette, Alabama, a town of less than 8,000 people.

    Maybe when more delinquent Rastafarians and Odinists move into the area the program can be expanded.
    Or they can drop this unconstitutional punishment option and stick to other, secular programs already shown to work without any question about their constitutionality.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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