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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

  1. #341
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What was the recidivism rate? Does anyone know? Is this program based on the one in Kentucky or have their been changes made?
    I can only find any information on this from around 2005 and it states that he made this offer to about 50 people with alcohol/drug related problems. No information at all on the recidivism rate.

    From the looks of it, the two are similar.

    Judge's Offer: Church Or Jail - CBS News
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I can only find any information on this from around 2005 and it states that he made this offer to about 50 people with alcohol/drug related problems. No information at all on the recidivism rate.

    From the looks of it, the two are similar.

    Judge's Offer: Church Or Jail - CBS News
    I still think, regardless of the criminal's religious status, it is a damn good deal for any criminal and a very bad freaking idea for that reason.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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  3. #343
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I still think, regardless of the criminal's religious status, it is a damn good deal for any criminal and a very bad freaking idea for that reason.
    Just because the option is a good deal for any criminal and a bad idea overall does not mean that it isn't unconstitutional. In fact, it isn't just about comparing the deal for with each option in the deal. It is also about comparing the deal given based on a person's religious beliefs. A person who already goes to church, especially a church within this program every Sunday is getting a better deal, no matter how you look at it, than someone who doesn't attend church regularly, especially if the person doesn't attend church because they do not hold religious beliefs that adhere to an established church or one in that area or beliefs that greatly conflict with the churches in that area. That is discrimination based on religion and is held to strict scrutiny under the 14th Amendment.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are apparently unfamiliar with how several US courts have interpreted the Establishment Clause to include very similar situations as this one. And at the end of the day, it is the courts that will determine whether this is Constitutional or not. Going on earlier cases similar to this one, it appears that the courts definitely believe that such things violate the Establishment Clause.
    It seems that sending juvenile offenders to Church each Sunday for a year, as an option for the guilty party, has now become the establishment of a religion.

    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."

  5. #345
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It seems that sending juvenile offenders to Church each Sunday for a year, as an option for the guilty party, has now become the establishment of a religion.
    It certainly could be if you are not providing a very similar option that would encompass every possible set of general beliefs out there, including a total lack of beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #346
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just because the option is a good deal for any criminal and a bad idea overall does not mean that it isn't unconstitutional. In fact, it isn't just about comparing the deal for with each option in the deal. It is also about comparing the deal given based on a person's religious beliefs. A person who already goes to church, especially a church within this program every Sunday is getting a better deal, no matter how you look at it, than someone who doesn't attend church regularly, especially if the person doesn't attend church because they do not hold religious beliefs that adhere to an established church or one in that area or beliefs that greatly conflict with the churches in that area. That is discrimination based on religion and is held to strict scrutiny under the 14th Amendment.
    because it is such a bad idea in general, the fact that it may or may not be unconstitutional is irrelevent. Instead of arguing over the constitutionality, argue over the stupidity.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  7. #347
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It seems that sending juvenile offenders to Church each Sunday for a year, as an option for the guilty party, has now become the establishment of a religion.
    its amazing how you fail to understand this relatively simple statement:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

  8. #348
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its amazing how you fail to understand this relatively simple statement:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
    I think it is basically that simple...
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just because the option is a good deal for any criminal and a bad idea overall does not mean that it isn't unconstitutional. In fact, it isn't just about comparing the deal for with each option in the deal. It is also about comparing the deal given based on a person's religious beliefs. A person who already goes to church, especially a church within this program every Sunday is getting a better deal, no matter how you look at it, than someone who doesn't attend church regularly, especially if the person doesn't attend church because they do not hold religious beliefs that adhere to an established church or one in that area or beliefs that greatly conflict with the churches in that area. That is discrimination based on religion and is held to strict scrutiny under the 14th Amendment.
    You seem to believe that this option is carved in stone and there is no judicial alternatives.

    It is an option that might or might not be exercised and is designed for first time offenders. Changing the environment just one day a week might not be such a bad idea for some young people. If the United States is going to fail it will more likely be the mountains of debt, rather than allowing a defendant to chose Church for each Sunday throughout the year.

    Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church? | WKRG

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its amazing how you fail to understand this relatively simple statement:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
    And which religion is being established here??? Just explain that and the problem is solved. In fact, as I understand it , Congress is not even involved in this case!

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